Does anyone else find this both crap and worrying....?

[Beedster]

On so many levels it worries me that 'luthiers' are doing this, and that unlike Ric, who'd be all over it, Fender doesn't challenge it? OK, it doesn't state 'Fender', and the stamp doesn't tie in with the description, but as if it's not hard enough to verify vintage Fender gear already, you get guys faking Fender neck stamps and openly selling on eBay? You gotta wonder how many are on the market that aren't acknowledged forgeries?

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Pre-CBS-64-jazz-neck-clay-dots-aged-bass-/150587027342?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item230fafaf8e#ht_500wt_922"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Pre-CBS-64-jazz...8e#ht_500wt_922[/url]

[Happy Jack]

See where you're coming from, Chris, but he's doing something that many others do too ... just being open about it.

Eventually someone will discover a way of performing non-intrusive dendro-chronology on bass components and then the sh*t will really hit the fan.

[Alfie]

It's time to start a vintage bass dendrochronology business.

EDIT: What he said ^

Edited April 17, 2011 by Alfie

[Beedster]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1202819' date='Apr 17 2011, 06:34 PM']See where you're coming from, Chris, but he's doing something that many others do too ... just being open about it.

Eventually someone will discover a way of performing non-intrusive dendro-chronology on bass components and then the sh*t will really hit the fan.[/quote]

Hey mate, how you feeling? Hope all's well.

I guess it's the fact that he can't sell it on eBay if it has 'Fender' on the headstock, but he can with that stamp. The intent is the same, as is the likely outcome; the new buyer buys the neck and a £12.50 transfer and bingo, it's on an equally non-kosher body and some poor f****r spends a lot of money on a pre-CBS? The seller has been open and technically honest, but not honest enough to not do it in the first place; that is, he knows exactly the likely reason that someone will buy that neck?

[KiOgon]

It worries me yes, not necessarily crap, it may truly be of great quality but the fact that he advertises it as a 64 neck & it clearly has Jan 63 stamped on it

[Beedster]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1202828' date='Apr 17 2011, 06:44 PM']It worries me yes, not necessarily crap, it may truly be of great quality but the fact that he advertises it as a 64 neck & it clearly has Jan 63 stamped on it [/quote]

In crap I meant that it's a crap thing to do, not crap quality.

Yes, his dates don't really tie in do they

[ThomBassmonkey]

Some quotes from the description:

"Keller handmade Pre~CBS ´64 neck replica"
"It's my take on Pre CBS Jazz neck ´64 replica"
"Neck is exact replica of ´64 Jazz"

He quite clearly says that it's a replica and that it's made by "Keller" (I assume him), I fail to see the problem. There's nothing misleading about it. If someone's going to spend £350+ on a neck (before import tax and shipping etc), I'd hope they'd read the description properly.

Edit: I understand the concern that it could be used to create a fake, but there's really nothing that Fender could do. It's very clearly advertised as a copy. As for the date, AFAIK the date stamps are often a year or more earlier than the bass's year because the bass's year is the year it was assembled, not the year it was made.

Edited April 17, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey

[KiOgon]

I can see a occasional genuine requirement - if you had a 63 or even 64 Jazz bass that had a nasty fall or perhaps you left it on the ground behind your car!!!!!!!!!! Where would you find a suitable replacement neck? I don't think Fender would be much help

[Bassassin]

I have no problem with it existing, but really think the date stamp is a bit dubious. Even if it isn't the seller's intention (and that's a whopping big "if" IMO), it's inevitable these will end up wearing fakey stickers, being re-loused (or whatever that stupid non-word is) and being fobbed off as genuine 60s Fenders.

Jon.

[Beedster]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1202842' date='Apr 17 2011, 06:59 PM']I can see a occasional genuine requirement - if you had a 63 or even 64 Jazz bass that had a nasty fall or perhaps you left it on the ground behind your car!!!!!!!!!! Where would you find a suitable replacement neck? I don't think Fender would be much help [/quote]

OK, but would it need a date stamp at the heel if you weren't planning on passing it off as original at some stage? It's not like the punters or the sound guy can see it?

[Beedster]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1202837' date='Apr 17 2011, 06:55 PM']Some quotes from the description:

"Keller handmade Pre~CBS ´64 neck replica"
"It's my take on Pre CBS Jazz neck ´64 replica"
"Neck is exact replica of ´64 Jazz"

He quite clearly says that it's a replica and that it's made by "Keller" (I assume him), I fail to see the problem. There's nothing misleading about it. If someone's going to spend £350+ on a neck (before import tax and shipping etc), I'd hope they'd read the description properly.

Edit: I understand the concern that it could be used to create a fake, but there's really nothing that Fender could do. It's very clearly advertised as a copy. As for the date, AFAIK the date stamps are often a year or more earlier than the bass's year because the bass's year is the year it was assembled, not the year it was made.[/quote]

I don't think he's being dishonest in his description, but I think he is being dubious in his intent, which is to sell a neck that will likely end up on a ringer, as John seems to agree below


[quote name='Bassassin' post='1202856' date='Apr 17 2011, 07:14 PM']I have no problem with it existing, but really think the date stamp is a bit dubious. Even if it isn't the seller's intention (and that's a whopping big "if" IMO), it's inevitable these will end up wearing fakey stickers, being re-loused (or whatever that stupid non-word is) and being fobbed off as genuine 60s Fenders.

Jon.[/quote]

[uke]

Just forwarded it to the fender legal dept ([email protected])
Lets see what they do!

[Beedster]

[quote name='uke' post='1202994' date='Apr 17 2011, 09:47 PM']Just forwarded it to the fender legal dept ([email protected])
Lets see what they do![/quote]

Good on you mate, I should probably have done that myself rather than rant about it here! It'll be interesting to hear their response; I guess the obvious line of thinking from Fender is that the vintage market doesn't hit their current sales, so they have no business interest in stopping this type of thing. They might however wonder whether, if the market gets flooded with high-quality vintage replicas, it could hit their RI and relic market badly?

Keep us posted?

Chris

[molan]

Surely by putting a 'fake' date stamp on the neck this is deliberate 'passing off' with intent to deceive a future purchaser?

I don't have a problem with anyone trying to replicate the exact profile, sound, feel etc. etc but putting a date stamp on that is obviously, and deliberately, misleading feels totally wrong to me

[uke]

"Jazz Bass" is still a Fender owned trademark, so the legal dept have grounds to ask ebay to remove it under the vero policy.

[MB1]

[quote name='molan' post='1203084' date='Apr 17 2011, 11:47 PM']Surely by putting a 'fake' date stamp on the neck this is deliberate 'passing off' with intent to deceive a future purchaser?

I don't have a problem with anyone trying to replicate the exact profile, sound, feel etc. etc but putting a date stamp on that is obviously, and deliberately, misleading feels totally wrong to me [/quote]

MB1.
+Twelvety!

[karlfer]

Latest in product available on ebay to help someone of dubious intent sell something for a lot more than it's worth.
Not on in my opinion.

[ThomBassmonkey]

The thing is that someone could probably put a date stamp on a neck as easily as a Fender decal and there's loads of necks sold without either. I don't see why the date makes it any more of a problem.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1203177' date='Apr 18 2011, 08:06 AM']I don't see why the date makes it any more of a problem.[/quote]
You just have to ask the question, 'WHY'?

As has been pointed out; to graft on a tatoo of the Fender logo etc to make your copy (or even luthier made replica ) look like a Fender so that it fools the general public etc. is dubious practice but I've personally got no problem with that as I'm a tart when it comes to labels the same as the next guy. However... stamping a part of the instrument that will never be seen by Joe Public can only (IMHO) be a practice done to dupe someone either now or at a later date, it serves no other purpose WHAT-SO-EVER!

I do have to say that the heel date stamping etc has been discussed on here before and iirc the bass in question was produced by a 'name' UK luthier, I stated then that the replication of markings not visible under normal useage was tantamount to blatant fraud and this neck is no different.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1203187' date='Apr 18 2011, 08:23 AM']As has been pointed out; to graft on a tatoo of the Fender logo etc to make your copy (or even luthier made replica ) look like a Fender so that it fools the general public etc. is dubious practice but I've personally got no problem with that as I'm a tart when it comes to labels the same as the next guy.[/quote]

Hmmmm ... struggling to agree with you on this one.



That's my Bravewood Precision. John Eliott doesn't put any logo on his headstocks AFAIK, and this one certainly left his workshop with nothing on it. One of the two previous owners stuck this decal on.

Dubious practice? Bollocks!!! It's an attempt at deception, it's fraudulent, it's a lie.

There's so much of this around already, and so many luthiers who will happily do it for you to order, that I'm genuinely surprised at some of the outrage this listing seems to be causing.

ps: Next time my Bravewood needs work done by a luthier, I'll be having that decal removed.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1203249' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:29 AM']Hmmmm ... struggling to agree with you on this one.[/quote]

I concede that we should all be happy knowing that an instrument should be judged on its own merits and not on the perception of quality implied by a name on the headstock, however there is little harm (in my book) in a mocked up bitsa with a 'name' logo. I personally much prefer those jokey logos that are meant to look like Fender/Rickebacker etc. from a distance but when you get up close it is a complete mickey take.

To clarify... it's one thing to stick a transfer on to please yourself with no intent, either now or in the future, to dupe or fool someone into thinking it is something that it is not BUT I completely agree that transfers applied to deliberately con or fool for gain or increase in perceived value is absolutely wrong!

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1203270' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:39 AM']I concede that we should all be happy knowing that an instrument should be judged on its own merits and not on the perception of quality implied by a name on the headstock, however there is little harm (in my book) in a mocked up bitsa with a 'name' logo. I personally much prefer those jokey logos that are meant to look like Fender/Rickebacker etc. from a distance but when you get up close it is a complete mickey take.

To clarify... it's one thing to stick a transfer on to please yourself with no intent, either now or in the future, to dupe or fool someone into thinking it is something that it is not BUT I completely agree that transfers applied to deliberately con or fool for gain or increase in perceived value is absolutely wrong![/quote]


I'd agree with this.

I've stuck decals on a few basses just as a nice alternative to a bare headstock. I never intend to sell them as the real deal or in any way profit from them.
However i do like fooling people as it just shows how much they judge value based on a little bit of plastic i knocked up on an inkjet printer.
Quite a few people have looked at my half-hearted TimmyC faker and said "Wow, nice Lakland!" Always makes me giggle!

[BassBod]

Happy Jack - the decal is only a waterslide, sitting on top the finish and will easily come off with a drop of water and a fingernail (and leave no damage whatsoever). No need to wait until it goes to a luthier...do the right thing!


Edit - then post a photo?

Edited April 18, 2011 by BassBod

[Beedster]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1203187' date='Apr 18 2011, 08:23 AM']You just have to ask the question, 'WHY'?

As has been pointed out; to graft on a tatoo of the Fender logo etc to make your copy (or even luthier made replica ) look like a Fender so that it fools the general public etc. is dubious practice but I've personally got no problem with that as I'm a tart when it comes to labels the same as the next guy. However... stamping a part of the instrument that will never be seen by Joe Public can only (IMHO) be a practice done to dupe someone either now or at a later date, it serves no other purpose WHAT-SO-EVER!

I do have to say that the heel date stamping etc has been discussed on here before and iirc the bass in question was produced by a 'name' UK luthier, I stated then that the replication of markings not visible under normal useage was tantamount to blatant fraud and this neck is no different.[/quote]


[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1203249' date='Apr 18 2011, 09:29 AM']That's my Bravewood Precision. John Eliott doesn't put any logo on his headstocks AFAIK, and this one certainly left his workshop with nothing on it. One of the two previous owners stuck this decal on.

Dubious practice? Bollocks!!! It's an attempt at deception, it's fraudulent, it's a lie.

There's so much of this around already, and so many luthiers who will happily do it for you to order, that I'm genuinely surprised at some of the outrage this listing seems to be causing.

ps: Next time my Bravewood needs work done by a luthier, I'll be having that decal removed.[/quote]

I think John was referring to a luthier-built '63 that had the Fender heel stamps also, and I'm not sure whether this was a Bravewood Jack. Either way, whilst I can understand the 'homage' factor of a headstock logo on a replica, I can see no honest reason to replicate the heel stamp, especially on a bass that is also built to look and feel like one that is 48 years old.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1202809' date='Apr 17 2011, 06:26 PM']On so many levels it worries me that 'luthiers' are doing this, and that unlike Ric, who'd be all over it, Fender doesn't challenge it? OK, it doesn't state 'Fender', and the stamp doesn't tie in with the description, but as if it's not hard enough to verify vintage Fender gear already, you get guys faking Fender neck stamps and openly selling on eBay? You gotta wonder how many are on the market that aren't acknowledged forgeries?

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Pre-CBS-64-jazz-neck-clay-dots-aged-bass-/150587027342?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item230fafaf8e#ht_500wt_922"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Pre-CBS-64-jazz...8e#ht_500wt_922[/url][/quote]


This brings me onto the wider issue as I said before there where not as many pre cbs fender basses as people think, esp Jazzers. Combine that with worldwide sales, natural attrition and what not. There seems to be many more basses around than there used to be and this has come about just as old fender iron has got popular and valuable. Fender basses were very expensive in the early to mid sixties and I would guess the average bass player would make do with other offerings, I don't think they flooded out the gates quite as people believe. Torwards the end of the decade i.e 66 onwards this was prob. different as yes CBS did take over, but what they did was invest heavily in the fullerton plant to automate production etc etc. and no I don't think quality suffered, if anything it probably improved as they stopped using '50s technology in production and they got cheaper.
There is a lot of snake oil about pre cbs stuff, yes the pickups are wonderful, but you can get modern reproductions that sound just as good, at least i can't tell. The early ones as I have said can suffer from neck curl, CBS sorted that out. I cannot for the life of me understand why a bolt on neck, mass produced plank commands such high value. Values on par with a hand crafted kalamazoo instrument, which has had may hours of love put into it, by a real person not a belt sander! But I do love my jazzers, they are a great play but I would never pay the current value for the old ones.

Edited April 18, 2011 by dan670844