Tall, Light, Stack ?

[largo]

Not after buying anything in a hurry but looking for some advice at the moment.
The majority of my gigs I have to stand so close to my amp/cab that hearing the bass isn't always the best, so what are my options? Playing in a function band means space is a premium so the obvious is to go up & not out. I guess what I'm looking for is some lightweight (less than 18kg) stackable cabs that also give some height. Only option at the moment I can think of is the Markbass 121H and stack 2 on their ends. However, any other suggestions would be welcome.

[ThomBassmonkey]

GK do a neo series, the NEO112s are about 13.6kg. If you're prepared to go a bit heavier, the 212s are 22.9kgs each.

I recently picked up a GK stack with the MB Fusion head and two NEO212s, the whole thing weighs about 47.9kgs, isn't much shorter than my big rig with two 4x10 cabs (and the height difference is more to do with the big head being much bigger than the MB head rather than speaker height) and sounds amazing.

[chris_b]

I don't know what chance you've got of hearing any of these before you buy but I'd look at 2 210's on end, 2 112's or a vertical 212 cab.

Obviously I think the Bergantino cabs are the best but Barefaced (Alex gives you a trial period) would be my next choice. After that I'd look at TC cabs. They get good reports and seem to be under priced, closely followed by Aguilar cabs.

[JTUK]

Don't understand why the bass can't be heard so I'd question the mix and sound first.
I am assuming you are mixing yourselves for the audience as well but a decent cab will project from the floor perfectly well given the chance.

After settling for a decent bass sound, I'd go through all the other instruments and see if you can clean up some of their frequencies, ie, out of the way of the bass.

1st problems, too loud band volume, 2nd, noisy gtrs, 3rd, keys left hand, 4th, badly tuned drums, but to be fair to drummers, most have an idea how to tune their kit.
If you get nowhere like this...you might have an unhelpful room every now and then but if this is almost every gig, I'd say the bass sound itself was at fault.
I really can't see a reason why having an earful of bass is going to be helpful...when all it really does is surpass a problem not fix it, IMV.

Edited April 21, 2011 by JTUK

[Salt on your Bass?]

You could of course just angle the cabs upwards as well, with a grammar pad or something equally innovative, at the front end of the cab so its not just blasting your ankles. Only conundrum this then deals is where to put the head, or fixing it to the cab.

I like barefaced. Also +1 to the bergs, GKs, TC and Aguilar in the light weight department.

[ThomBassmonkey]

If you're on a cramped stage with no PA support there's not a lot you can do as even if you angle your cab back, it'll still be low or you'd have to angle it back so far it won't go out front properly and you'll be lost to the punters.

If you have PA support, you could try swapping sides with the guitarist and angling your amps in, that should give you some range. Without PA support though they won't be properly projected into the crowd.

I don't think a Gramma Pad would help here, they're designed so that when you go onto boomy stages, your amp isn't mechanically coupled with the floor and it significantly reduces the "boom". The ones I've seen don't angle back.

You can get amp stands that will elevate and angle your cab, that might be worth looking into if you like your current amp, you just can't hear it. Something like this: [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Guitar-Amplifier-Stand/8GP"]http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/...ifier-Stand/8GP[/url] . I can't recommend specifics though as I use a stack.

[Salt on your Bass?]

Yeah, fair point about the angling in a tight environment. Grammar pad was probably to wrong suggestion, I meant just something to elevate the front end - i guess a brick would do the job!

With a stand solution, will that result in any loss of bass reinforcemnt/poor coupling?

Band eq'ing is a good idea, although I' still struggling with my guitarist, but when he clears out of my frequency area, its amazing what difference it makes.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' post='1206843' date='Apr 21 2011, 10:47 AM']With a stand solution, will that result in any loss of bass reinforcemnt/poor coupling?[/quote]

I don't think that should really be a problem for most cabs these days. They should be able to pump out enough lows without relying on the floor. Regardless, given the choice of not being able to hear yourself or losing coupling, it's a bit of a no brainer IMO.

I don't know the kinds of venues the OP is playing, but I know if I had my cabs flat on a floor at the small pub gigs I've played, the audience is up close anyway so it would've been firing at their ankles too.

[Wil]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1206803' date='Apr 21 2011, 10:07 AM']GK do a neo series, the NEO112s are about 13.6kg. If you're prepared to go a bit heavier, the 212s are 22.9kgs each.

I recently picked up a GK stack with the MB Fusion head and two NEO212s, the whole thing weighs about 47.9kgs, isn't much shorter than my big rig with two 4x10 cabs (and the height difference is more to do with the big head being much bigger than the MB head rather than speaker height) and sounds amazing.[/quote]

I used to run a Neo 212 with a Neo 112 on top. It was a good height, I must say, although I think two Neo 212s would have worked better. Nice cabs.

[cetera]

[quote name='Wil' post='1206848' date='Apr 21 2011, 10:58 AM']I used to run a Neo 212 with a Neo 112 on top. It was a good height, I must say, although I think two Neo 212s would have worked better. Nice cabs.[/quote]

Yep, I run two Genz Benz Neox212T's vertically... and aside from being extremely loud it is also GREAT for hearing your bass!

[xgsjx]

I Have a Markbass 2x10 combo that for most of the time sits vertically & sometimes I raise it up on something like one of the drummer's drum cases or a flightcase or two from something else.
I've often toyed with the idea of adding another 2x10 for height, but there's nothing to warrant the expense just now (I certainly don't need to be any louder) & my other thought is to add a sub under it (still toying with building a BFM Tuba).
Any time I go thru PA that woll handle everything I usually just DI from my amp & use it as a tiltback monitor pointing towards me.

If I can't hear myself, it's usually for the same reasins as a couple others have mentioned (usually the guitarist boosting the bass or using an octaver, a slap on the back of his head usually rectifies this ).

Edited for spelling!

Edited April 21, 2011 by xgsjx

[alexclaber]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1206821' date='Apr 21 2011, 10:22 AM']I really can't see a reason why having an earful of bass is going to be helpful...when all it really does is surpass a problem not fix it, IMV.[/quote]

If you're standing right up against a short-ish cab then you're going to miss out on a lot of the treble and midrange which the rest of the band and the audience are hearing, because your ears are much further off-axis.

I'd lift the cab off the floor and/or tilt it upwards so it's pointing more at your ears. If your amp is in a rack then put the cab on the rack instead of the other way around. As little as 1' of lift and 20 deg of upward tilt can make all the difference. Improvise!

You'd have to lift the cab really far off the floor to lose out on LF coupling where you need it (by which point you'll probably start getting coupling from the ceiling instead!)

[Musicman20]

The TC cabs are nice for a vertical and compact stack. Easy to lift, nice tone/tweeter, great price.

[largo]

Thanks for all the replies....

OK, the 212 cabs are a good height, but go above the weight of a one-man carry in my opinion. They would also take more floor space and I'm looking for narrow & wide as opposed to wide & wide. More speaker than I would ever need as well. Standing a couple of feet from a cab that barely reaches your knees, does mean in my opinion that the sound passes you by and you hear reflection more than the cab itself. The GK 112 looks good and is 23.5" high, so 2 stacked on their side are 47" same as the 121H I thought about, so I would definitely hear that. Not up for the tilt I'm afraid, I think my amp would slide off unless I think about vlecro and all sorts. Same goes for the stand.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[xgsjx]

How about a nice set of wireless headphones then?

Edited for more typos!!!

Edited April 21, 2011 by xgsjx

[Wil]

What about a Schroeder 1212L? Fairly easy carry, and stacked vertically the angled speaker pretty much points at your lug 'oles.

[JTUK]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1206890' date='Apr 21 2011, 11:24 AM']If you're standing right up against a short-ish cab then you're going to miss out on a lot of the treble and midrange which the rest of the band and the audience are hearing, because your ears are much further off-axis.
...............[/quote]


I'd disagree, I'd say the sound into the cab or the cab itself is lacking.

I run two single 12's which aren't the tallest.. They don't lack for signal even though everyone talks about them having a mid scoop.
If I had any problems hearing them ...it wouldn't be the positioning that I'd respond to.

I find too many bass players go for a bassy sounding cab and then wonder why they can't hear it. Either the cab has a bass bias which they like but it is not ideal for hearing or the signal in isn't clean enough.
If you have a muffled sound you are going to have problems.... and stacking one on top of another is bypassing the problem not dealing with it, IME, and of course, makes a mockery of a one speaker per cab solution in itself which is a myth, IMO.

Edited April 21, 2011 by JTUK

[Noisyjon]

I use 2 x Barefaced Compacts with a MarkBass SA450 amp.
It's tall, light and a [i]really[/i] powerful setup... Highly recommended.

Regards,
Jon

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1206947' date='Apr 21 2011, 11:57 AM']I'd disagree, I'd say the sound into the cab or the cab itself is lacking.

I run two single 12's which aren't the tallest.. They don't lack for signal even though everyone talks about them having a mid scoop.
If I had any problems hearing them ...it wouldn't be the positioning that I'd respond to.

I find too many bass players go for a bassy sounding cab and then wonder why they can't hear it. Either the cab has a bass bias which they like but it is not ideal for hearing or the signal in isn't clean enough.
If you have a muffled sound you are going to have problems.... and stacking one on top of another is bypassing the problem not dealing with it, IME, and of course, makes a mockery of a one speaker per cab solution in itself which is a myth, IMO.[/quote]

Treble is much more directional than bass. If you point your cab at your ears, you'll hear more treble (and mids) than if you stand behind it. Since most of the definition in bass is from the treble and mids, if your speakers are pointing at your ankles you (or anyone stood close) won't hear the definition and you won't sound great. If you angle the cab or have it higher up (or both) more of the treble and mids will be pointing at your ears and you'll have better sound.

It's why monitors are angled, it's why PA full range cabs are elevated to nearer ear height on poles (since bass isn't as directional, bass bins usually aren't).

If you're bumping up the treble and mids because being stood above a cab means you're not hearing those frequencies, anyone that can hear them (remember, if you're on a high-ish stage, they could be pointing directly at someone's ears) is getting a very rough deal and you could be sounding thin and clankey.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey

[JTUK]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1206967' date='Apr 21 2011, 12:11 PM']Treble is much more directional than bass. If you point your cab at your ears, you'll hear more treble (and mids) than if you stand behind it. Since most of the definition in bass is from the treble and mids, if your speakers are pointing at your ankles you (or anyone stood close) won't hear the definition and you won't sound great. If you angle the cab or have it higher up (or both) more of the treble and mids will be pointing at your ears and you'll have better sound.

It's why monitors are angled, it's why PA full range cabs are elevated to nearer ear height on poles (since bass isn't as directional, bass bins usually aren't).

If you're bumping up the treble and mids because being stood above a cab means you're not hearing those frequencies, anyone that can hear them (remember, if you're on a high-ish stage, they could be pointing directly at someone's ears) is getting a very rough deal and you could be sounding thin and clankey.[/quote]

Pointing a cab at your ears doesn't help the mix out front if you don't have P.A support.
If you can't hear your bass well enough from less than 2 metres, how is anyone going to..?

It may be that the OP has a deep bass sound which he likes and wants to keep but then can't get the higher end out of it that he needs to hear. This will need a compromise then.

Get the sound right at source and you'll not need to have amps and cans flung all over.
If your cab doesn't have enough standing on the floor for you then I doubt the sound is going to be that great any further away.

Whether you can get all you want out of a 15" is debatable..
Some might do IF they have a lot of attack on the signal and play with a pick.

But anyway, back to the OP...a middle compromise would be 12's with a horn, IMV..
2x 2x10's would be better, IMO, but this isn't a one cab carry.

15's are good for poke but not so much for definition, IME which is why 1x15 and 2x10 is very popular.

This will be my preferred config that I'll go back to for a larger rig. 6x10 would be even better but for transport compromises.
I have come round to the opinion that small and light carries it own compromises and it just comes down to where or what you make these on.

For the OP..if he is happy with the cab, I'd add an higher freq one on.
A compatible 12" with a horn would raise the height...that would be a bonus ..plus add a higher freq response.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1207177' date='Apr 21 2011, 03:36 PM']Pointing a cab at your ears doesn't help the mix out front if you don't have P.A support.
If you can't hear your bass well enough from less than 2 metres, how is anyone going to..?

It may be that the OP has a deep bass sound which he likes and wants to keep but then can't get the higher end out of it that he needs to hear. This will need a compromise then.

Get the sound right at source and you'll not need to have amps and cans flung all over.
If your cab doesn't have enough standing on the floor for you then I doubt the sound is going to be that great any further away.[/quote]

If you have a tall stack, you don't need to angle anything and everything should sound similar to you as it would to people in the crowd. If you have a short stack (as Alex was saying), the treble and mids will be going past your knees while all you hear is the less directional bass (which is more pronounced the nearer you are to the amp as the angle to your ears increases), meaning that either you won't have a good sound or to give yourself a better sound, it's going to sound tinny out front where they'll be hearing far more of the higher frequencies (assuming they're not stood right next to you).

Angling cabs and my suggestion of having a cab on the other side of the stage angled in slightly are compromises that could increase the amount of higher frequencies that the OP would hear without spoiling the sound out front too much, so long as the angles aren't taken to extremes and leaving the audience with the muddy frequencies that the bassist is trying to avoid.

If the sound's right at the source next to your feet, it doesn't mean it'll be right at your head. Likewise, if the floor of the stage is at shoulder height for most people (as a lot of stages are), then they'll be getting a balanced sound from a 2x10 but it'll still be too low for the bassist stood next to the amp to hear any clarity properly (assuming the 2x10 is the bassist's only cab with no PA support).

[alexclaber]

Thanks Thom, I'm glad someone else is listening (both in terms of what I'm saying and also hearing the real world results of acoustic laws at gigs!)

If you're on a very small stage there's a lot to be said for putting the guitar amp and bass amp on opposite sides of the stage to their players. But if you want to feel the thump up close that isn't an option.

[JTUK]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1207215' date='Apr 21 2011, 04:09 PM']If you have a tall stack, you don't need to angle anything and everything should sound similar to you as it would to people in the crowd. If you have a short stack (as Alex was saying), the treble and mids will be going past your knees while all you hear is the less directional bass (which is more pronounced the nearer you are to the amp as the angle to your ears increases), meaning that either you won't have a good sound or to give yourself a better sound, it's going to sound tinny out front where they'll be hearing far more of the higher frequencies (assuming they're not stood right next to you).

Angling cabs and my suggestion of having a cab on the other side of the stage angled in slightly are compromises that could increase the amount of higher frequencies that the OP would hear without spoiling the sound out front too much, so long as the angles aren't taken to extremes and leaving the audience with the muddy frequencies that the bassist is trying to avoid.

If the sound's right at the source next to your feet, it doesn't mean it'll be right at your head. Likewise, if the floor of the stage is at shoulder height for most people (as a lot of stages are), then they'll be getting a balanced sound from a 2x10 but it'll still be too low for the bassist stood next to the amp to hear any clarity properly (assuming the 2x10 is the bassist's only cab with no PA support). [/quote]


No... wouldn't and shouldn't need to do any of this.

Too much of a faff for a simple problem.

[alexclaber]

Does the earth look flat to you too?

[JTUK]

Why are you arguing with me..?

He can't get a sound out of one of your cabs..?