Tall, Light, Stack ?

[51m0n]

If you stand right in front of a low cab the nature of the radiation of the sound from said cab will be giveing your ears a vastly higher ratio of low end to upper mid. This is an absolute fact, no arguing with it, its how bass frequencies work compared to high frequencies.

IME the very best situation is to have your drivers at ear level. That way you eq your sound based upon a clear and accurate mix of the top end and bottom end coming of the drivers/cab. This means what hits your audience is what hits you but further away.

To this end I find getting the cab up high and not angled is the ideal to always aim for.

If at all possible get your cab as close to the back wall as you can.

Once everything is set up start with a flat eq at gig volumes and gently shape your sound to where you like it. Should take about 20 seconds if all you are doing is eq, takes me a minute or so as I usually set up a compressor too.

This is so critical that I would seriously suggest getting something to stand your rig on at all gigs.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1207281' date='Apr 21 2011, 05:23 PM']Why are you arguing with me..?

He can't get a sound out of one of your cabs..? [/quote]

He's previously stated that he does, and that it works for the band and audience too. The issue is that on very small stages he's too close to hear the same sound that everyone else is hearing.

The problem is simple acoustics and the best solution is simply elevating the cab and I'm not the only one saying that!

[Happy Jack]

Back to the OP.

I usually run a Barefaced Big One for larger pub gigs, and a Barefaced Midget for smaller ones.

On two occasions I've had exactly the same problem as Largo, so I simply put the Midget on top of the Big One. Sorted.

It's overkill, of course, and I wouldn't recommend going out and buying that particular rig purely to solve that particular problem.

But if you have both cabs anyway (like wot I do) and an amp that can drive 2 x 8-Ohm cabs (like my Orange OTB) then it's a no-cost no-brainer of a fix.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1207281' date='Apr 21 2011, 05:23 PM']Why are you arguing with me..?

He can't get a sound out of one of your cabs..? [/quote]


Try setting up your amp so that it's about waist height, then kneel down so your ear's right in front of it and play (not loudly, obviously). Then stand so that your ears are above the cab and play again.

You should notice a very obvious difference in tone (I'm surprised you haven't noticed it anyway, it really isn't at all subtle). The sound will be a lot bassier with less definition. You can hear the same thing by walking behind the cab or indeed, any position except in front of it.

The higher the frequcy, the less it's projected around the back of the speaker, hence it being directional. It's the high frequencies that give the sound the definition. If you can't hear those high frequencies (because you're stood out of the conal area in front of the speaker) your bass might sound muddy and you'll lose definition and the tone that you want to hear.

You can try it with any speaker and any audio. Pointing a speaker directly at your ears will always sound more as intended.

If the sound's the same above the speaker as directly in front of it, you either desperately need your ears checking (and probably hearing aids if your hearing's that damaged) or you have a magical amp that you should share with the world because it's totally unique and has properties other cab manufacturers would love to get their hands on. If the speakers are all facing the same direction, it might even cause the rules of physics to be re-written.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='cetera' post='1206872' date='Apr 21 2011, 11:16 AM']Yep, I run two Genz Benz Neox212T's vertically... and aside from being extremely loud it is also GREAT for hearing your bass! [/quote]
They are easy enough for one and not wide and tall at all , narrow and tall for sure. 2x 1x12 don't have the output of one 2x12 either I'm more than happy to take the pepsi challenge against any make pair of 1x12's

I have no issue with hearing when stood close and wouldn't want a proper rig raised up or angled up, Looks naff IMO.

[Musicman20]

Why do people advise against elevating cabs then? Or is that just in certain scenarios?

If we should elevate, why bother buying a squat cab like a 4x10? Hard work to get elevated.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1207388' date='Apr 21 2011, 06:53 PM']Why do people advise against elevating cabs then? Or is that just in certain scenarios?

If we should elevate, why bother buying a squat cab like a 4x10? Hard work to get elevated.[/quote]

I've never seen anyone advise against elevating cabs. I can't imagine any reason why the principal would be ill-advised (obviously in certain situations it's not the best, heavy cabs, uneven stages etc)

There's a lot of arguments against a 4x10 (weight, cost, size, horizontal dispersion), but people (including myself) keep buying them. I think it's the whole big rig thing, they're used on bigger stages because they are louder and will be helpful on large stages, so people assume that they're best (but overkill) for small stages too. I'm no expert on amps, but I know enough to know I'd probably be better off with 2 2x10s than 1 4x10 for most of my gigs, but there's something about having a big cab behind you. I'm sure I've seen the reasonings behind it somewhere (to do with internal cabinet size?) but a 4x10 will sound different to two 2x10s as well. IIRC it'll have a bigger bottom end without losing clarity.

I know personally if I use both my 4x10s, the sound is much better for me than if I use one, which I put down to the elevation of the 2nd.

[JTUK]

thombassmonkey..why are you telling me this?
I am not the one who needs to know this at all.. I have my sound sorted, IMO, thanks.
I don't need to elevate or tilt my gear, it works off the floor, 95% of the time..and for that extra 5% I can consider the room is against me and I'll work round it with either the bass or amp EQ.

It really isn't rocket science, just use your ears.

Alexcaber..I'd say if the user couldn't hear the cab from the floor..then he has bought the wrong cab to use as a standalone. This is a time-honoured issue with 15's as a standalone, IMO. I'd say this for any 15" as well..JBL, EV, Gauss, Eminence etc etc ..I've had them all.
I got flamed for saying this before but it is a tough sell for one speaker..and the 15 is not it, IMO, IMV, IME.

If the OP doesn't agree with me..then that is fine, it is his choice and his kit, and his problem to solve and he can try some of the alternative ideas here.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1207425' date='Apr 21 2011, 07:25 PM']thombassmonkey..why are you telling me this?
I am not the one who needs to know this at all.. I have my sound sorted, IMO, thanks.
I don't need to elevate or tilt my gear, it works off the floor, 95% of the time..and for that extra 5% I can consider the room is against me and I'll work round it with either the bass or amp EQ.

It really isn't rocket science, just use your ears.[/quote]

Because you seem insistant that there will be no difference in sound depending on where the person's ears are in relation to the cab (which applies to all cabs, not just 15s) and it's a well proven fact that there is. Like you say, use your ears. The reason I'm telling you and not the OP is because we have told the OP, then you've come into the thread and dismissed a lot of facts that have been mentioned. Simply put, elevating cabs and tilting them back are solutions to this problem that could save the OP money, there's a reason that 2x10 etc cabs are usually stacked vertically and some cabs are a kickback design.

I don't think this is going to benefit anyone so we should probably let the thread go back on course.

[Mr. Foxen]

I don't think we do classifying speakers by diameter on this forum any more. Although actually, the frequency that they become noticeable directional is down to the speaker diameter (although the flexibility of the cone sort of affects it too), so it is relevant in this case. And using your ears doesn't help if your ears are in the wrong place, and if you correct that with eq rather than changing their relative position, you are going to have compromised the out front sound.

The not elevating your cabs thing I've not heard much, but it is to do with a cab on the floor radiating into half space (or quarter space if it is against a wall too, eighth in a corner) which reinforces the low end, because less air is about for it to be moving/sound bouncing off walls. I think that is often incorrectly described as 'coupling', which is more to do with multiple speakers being very close together acting as one.

[Musicman20]

Thats it, the cab on the floor radiating part. Hence why some people dont like casters on 4x10s, but are they wrong, or just using their own ear?

Anyway, it doesnt matter. I dont think a 1x15 is a good idea for a 'do it all' standalone cab.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1207449' date='Apr 21 2011, 07:50 PM']Thats it, the cab on the floor radiating part. Hence why some people dont like casters on 4x10s, but are they wrong, or just using their own ear?

Anyway, it doesnt matter. I dont think a 1x15 is a good idea for a 'do it all' standalone cab.[/quote]

The casters is the being wrong about coupling bit, the thought being it needs a firm contact with the floor, when actually is is the distance to the floor that is important (obviously the height of the casters factors in, but meh). 1x15s can be fine for doing it all, its just there are a whole bunch that aren't.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1207449' date='Apr 21 2011, 07:50 PM']Thats it, the cab on the floor radiating part. Hence why some people dont like casters on 4x10s, but are they wrong, or just using their own ear?

Anyway, it doesnt matter. I dont think a 1x15 is a good idea for a 'do it all' standalone cab.[/quote]
Do you know what one of my favourite sounding amps ever was my old Peavey TNT with a 15" BW speaker, It worked really well with my 2002 Ray which was spanking new at the time over 9 years ago

[largo]

Hello all, I'm more than grateful for all the posts but I don't want this turning into a bun fight.

So that everyone is aware, I am more than happy with the sound & tone I get out of my setup, and similar to JTUK it's that 5% of gigs that are the problem, well maybe nearer 10%. The dilemma only comes about where the band are stuck for space. Essentially standing a foot or so from my cab that's only 25" high I feel the sound passes me by. One solution I like, suggested by Alex on one of his posts is to put my amp underneath the cab and tilt it slightly too. It's a rackmounted amp and the Compact, I think is light enough not to crush things underneath. Would the frequencies cause any problems to the amp components, i.e shake something loose? JTUK, sorry but I have to disagree with your comment that 15's are no good for definition. I've owned 4x10's 2x12's, 2x10's etc and this 1x15 is as defined as it it gets. In fact, I'll go as far to say that the Barefaced Compact is the best sounding cab I've owned to date.

I'm more than happy with everyone's reponses and it's probably best to put this thread to bed now. Thanks everyone, again.

[xgsjx]

I've found a couple of great solutions for your Tall Light Stack...

Either pop these one on top of t'other















Or if you're feeling really flush....

[largo]

superb, I didn't think about disco lights to prop up the cab. You, my man are a genius

[xgsjx]

I actually surprise myself sometimes!

[Happy Jack]

Looking at your sig, xgsjx (or can I call you xg for short?), could you please tell me what a [i][b]Pengueng [/b][/i]is?

[xgsjx]

It's a dyslexic penguin of course.

Are you still thinking about them?

Edited April 22, 2011 by xgsjx

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='largo' post='1207887' date='Apr 22 2011, 08:34 AM']Would the frequencies cause any problems to the amp components, i.e shake something loose?[/quote]

The Compact is super stiff, so only vibration from sound should be getting at your amp components, and that will be happening wherever it is. Some amps do suffer from vibration problems, I think hot glue is the fix for that.

[Delberthot]

I've been using this setup for years:



The cab may change from time to time but this is how I monitor myself in my function band. I prefer it to the right hand side but space sometimes doesn't allow this so the audience miss me busting some moves

when I'm playing pub gigs with no PA support, I turn the stand round so that it is beside/behind me, level it out horizontally so I can still hear it clearly while still pointing towards the audience instead of at me

Easy peasy

Edited April 22, 2011 by Delberthot

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='1208021' date='Apr 22 2011, 10:24 AM']I've been using this setup for years:



The cab may change from time to time but this is how I monitor myself in my function band. I prefer it to the right hand side but space sometimes doesn't allow this so the audience miss me busting some moves

when I'm playing pub gigs with no PA support, I turn the stand round so that it is beside/behind me, level it out horizontally so I can still hear it clearly while still pointing towards the audience instead of at me

Easy peasy[/quote]

Totally practical, none Doom.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='1208021' date='Apr 22 2011, 10:24 AM']I've been using this setup for years:

[/quote]
See! Even he uses a light stack (although not tall & I wouldn't sit my cab on it).

[Delberthot]

that stand has and will take a full weight 4x10", I even used it with my Trace V-type combo a couple of years ago.

You would have to push the stand back until its about 5" off the floor before it would start to tip. totally solid, even with drunk punters insisting on leaning against it to request songs.


It doesn't look doom but I'd rather be able to hear myself clearly than have an impractical 8x10" penis extension behind me

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='1208093' date='Apr 22 2011, 11:14 AM']It doesn't look doom but I'd rather be able to hear myself clearly than have [b]an[/b] impractical 8x10" penis extension behind me [/quote]

Doom fail.