TB Cable thread.

[paul h]

Just read some of a thread over on TB about cables can affect tone. I didn't read all of the thread because a bunch of egomaniacs trying to outdo each other by listing their various credentials is positively yawn inducing.

However, I am interested to hear the opinions of rational and intelligent bassists like wot we 'ave 'ere.

In my opinion a bad cable can affect tone, usually in terms of leeching the top end. Replace said cable with a decent one, and it can be like putting on a new set of strings. I have heard it myself. It's more noticeable with guitars...but it is noticeable.

Whether a super-mega-deluxe cable can sound any better than a run of the mill jobby, I have no experience with because I am too tight to buy the expensive stuff. I make my own cables with Neutrik connectors and Van Damme cable. I used Whirlwind for years and have dabbled with Planet Waves.

So good is better than bad, but I don't know if expensive is better than cheap.

Discuss.

Calmly.

Paul.

EDIT: Spelt Van Damme wrong! D'oh!

Edited February 11, 2008 by paul h

[Bilbo]

I can accept this in principle but my question is this:

can a cable effect tone in a manner that impacts significantly on the perceived tonal results in the context of the other environmental variables in play?

Or, in English, is the effect significant enough to be heard against the other things that effect it such as the shape of a room, the amp's/bass's eq, flat surfaces, carpets/tileds floors etc. My perspective is that it probably doesn't so, whilst it is worth noting, it ain't worth lying awake over.

I am open to challenge.

[bremen]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='138053' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:18 AM']I can accept this in principle but my question is this:

can a cable effect tone in a manner that impacts significantly on the perceived tonal results in the context of the other environmental variables in play?

Or, in English, is the effect significant enough to be heard against the other things that effect it such as the shape of a room, the amp's/bass's eq, flat surfaces, carpets/tileds floors etc. My perspective is that it probably doesn't so, whilst it is worth noting, it ain't worth lying awake over.

I am open to challenge.[/quote]

A cable can certainly and measurably affect the top end, more so with passive instruments that have high impedance pickups (but even active giutars with pots on the outputs will be affected if the pots are set at less than full on). It's down to the capacitance of the cable, which should be as low as possible. The resistance is irrelevant, so beware of claims like 'oxygen free copper for maximum conductivity' which are just hype.


Van Damme cables are good, not all manufacturers publish capacitance.

I have swallowed the Little Book Of Calm.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='138053' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:18 AM']I can accept this in principle but my question is this:

can a cable effect tone in a manner that impacts significantly on the perceived tonal results in the context of the other environmental variables in play?

Or, in English, is the effect significant enough to be heard against the other things that effect it such as the shape of a room, the amp's/bass's eq, flat surfaces, carpets/tileds floors etc. My perspective is that it probably doesn't so, whilst it is worth noting, it ain't worth lying awake over.

I am open to challenge.[/quote]

As an (ex) Hifi Anorak, I've used cables that were laying around for various purposes.
I recall a piece of parallel (spaced) DNM Reson solid core interconnect sounding great between my Ampeg SVP Pro and QSC Power amp. It sounded cleaner and less cluttered than a regular patch cable.
On the other hand, I too, generally use Whirlwind and Planet Waves Instrument cables as neither have ever squeaked, popped, banged or broken, on stage or in a studio.
Suitablity for intended use is also key; Is said cable tough enough to survive its task?

You raise a fair point with regard to other (physical, acoustic and electrical) factors in play that determine overall perceived tone, but it is worth considering that there are some attempts to control these in many of the environments we routinely encounter;

Studios. Need I say more? Isolation booths, screens, DI+Miking techniques. All attempt to control the acoustic environment.
Live. Who here relies purely on their amp for FOH sound? Many of us DI through a desk.

It is in these (largely electrical) domains that cable can make a contribution. Live, you're still at the mercy of the multicore, but if your signal's lacking in the first place, it certainly isn't going to get any better...

[warwickhunt]

Cable (and connectors) will affect tone, but hey unless you've got the DB's bass/amp/cab you'll hear differing degrees of difference ( I deliberately didn't say improvement as it may not always be an improvement). Hi-fi/audio buffs have been pursuing perfection for years but you get diminishing returns the more you spend.

[BOD2]

This is a version of the "hi fi" debate isn't it ? The bass guitar debate is usually spoiled by people bringing in confusing statistics from the world of expensive hi-fi music systems that are not relevant in [i][b]this[/i][/b] debate.

As bilbo230763 points out, as small difference in signal strength may be measurable electronically but whether or not that difference can be heard in a real gigging environment (or even a practical studio environment) is what matters. And if the only effect of the signal improvement obtained by adding a very expensive cable is a slight increase in the top end....then why don't you just tweak the treble control on your amp to make the same adjustment for free ?

Yes - we need good quality, robust, reliable cables (not cheap rubbish) but where do you draw the line ?

With all of these setups you need to examine every part if the signal chain - no point in having a super expensive cable between your bass and pedal board if the connections between the pedals themselves aren't up to the same standard. And what about the cabling INSIDE these devices (or even your bass). Are these up to the same standards ?

Gold contacts anyone ? These only work if both the plug and socket are gold plated, otherwise the softer gold plating is just worn off the expensive plug by the harder steel contacts on the cheap socket every time you plug in.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='138072' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:42 AM']Cable (and connectors) will affect tone, but hey unless you've got the DB's bass/amp/cab you'll hear differing degrees of difference ( I deliberately didn't say improvement as it may not always be an improvement). Hi-fi/audio buffs have been pursuing perfection for years but you get diminishing returns the more you spend.[/quote]

All true, especially the part about the law of diminishing returns.

I use an 8 track mini desk and good (Sennheiser) Closed-back headphones at home for practice purposes. I had the cables kicking about, so it cost me nothing to try it out.
That's what I'd encourage- Low cost, semi-permanent experimentation. If you like the changes it makes, stick with it. If not, no harm done.
I certainly wouldn't endorse spending a fortune based on some cable manufacturer's tenuous claims of sonic perfection!

[Bilbo]

'As bilbo230763 points out, as small difference in signal strength may be measurable electronically but whether or not that difference can be heard in a real gigging environment (or even a practical studio environment) is what matters. And if the only effect of the signal improvement obtained by adding a very expensive cable is a slight increase in the top end....then why don't you just tweak the treble control on your amp to make the same adjustment for free ?'


That's what I thought....

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='BOD2' post='138074' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:46 AM']Gold contacts anyone ? These only work if both the plug and socket are gold plated, otherwise the softer gold plating is just worn off the expensive plug by the harder steel contacts on the cheap socket every time you plug in.[/quote]

As a complete electronics moron (no false modesty intended - I mean what I say), I thought the attraction of gold-plated connectors was that they never tarnish, so you always get a perfect connection?

[bass_ferret]

I think the cables supplied by OBBM are as much as is reasonable to spend. I played for years with a keyboard player who used really cheap cables and he did have a really awful sound.

[BOD2]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='138100' date='Feb 11 2008, 12:25 PM']As a complete electronics moron (no false modesty intended - I mean what I say), I thought the attraction of gold-plated connectors was that they never tarnish, so you always get a perfect connection?[/quote]

"Tarnishing" is caused by oxidisation of the metal as it reacts to the oxygen in the air. Metal contacts will discolour a little and gradually start to lose their conductivity. Gold does not react to oxygen in the air, therefore it does not tarnish, therefore it does not lose conductivity and is an excellent choice for contacts.

So far so good.

BUT...the contacts are not solid gold (too expensive). They are gold plated. Gold is a relatively soft metal (certainly softer than steel) so if you plug a gold plug in and out of a steel socket a few times, the gold will start to wear off. And guess what's underneath ? Yep - the same metal that tarnishes !

Gold contacts work better where both socket and plug are gold plated - each is as hard/soft as the other so there is less wear. Or where there is not frequently plugging/unplugging of the connector (e.g. semi-permanent installations like hi-fi or tv setups).

Incidentally, the frequent plugging/unplugging of a normal metal jack plug you will actually clean the metal through abrasion which prevents the tarnishing in the first place.

EDIT - it's probably not steel that is used for connectors, but whatever it is will always be harder than gold.

[Alien]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='138100' date='Feb 11 2008, 12:25 PM']As a complete electronics moron (no false modesty intended - I mean what I say), I thought the attraction of gold-plated connectors was that they never tarnish, so you always get a perfect connection?[/quote]
The point is that in an installation, where plugs are connected once and then left alone for years, gold plating makes sense. In an application where plugs are in and out all the time, like on a bass or amp, then the action of plugging and unplugging can help keep the connectors tarnish-free.

Andy

Edit: Doh! Beaten to the punch!

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='paul h' post='138040' date='Feb 11 2008, 11:02 AM']Just read some of a thread over on TB about cables can affect tone. I didn't read all of the thread because a bunch of egomaniacs trying to outdo each other by listing their various credentials is positively yawn inducing.[/quote]

Ha ha, just read it. Absolutely priceless. No one does arguing quite like a bunch of gobby Americans

[BigRedX]

bass_ferret has hit the nail on the head here.

Yes you can spend more and yes they may sound better, but 99% of the time a good quality robust cable and connectors will be completely adequate for what we need.

And as others have said the criteria for hifi cables where you keep your runs as short as possible, bulkiness to overcome interference and whole plug once and forget that goes with a permananet installation is completely different to connecting a bass to an amp.

[Dood]

[apologies for not reading the rest of the posts] Interestingly, at the last bass bash, OBBM handed me one of his instrument cables and we (I) a/b'd it against the lead I was using. My lead was a bog standard lead and may have been a different length to that of Dave's. I remember that I was convinced that even with the dull rumble of basses being played around me, Dave's cable had a clearer top end. I don't think it's something you'd notice in a band situation.. up loud, on stage, as it would be the same as notching up a treble control a few dB's.. but the fact that there was a difference, for what ever reason, remains.

On the subject of speaker cables, I swapped from using two metre x two mm2 cable to (once again, OBBM's) one metre x four mm2 cable and I am absolutely positive there was an improvement in tone. I switched back and forth several times too. I don't care what the reasons were.. There certainly wasn't any percieved improvement due to the cost of the products.. as the cable isn't exactly breaking the bank lol.

- i'd like to point out though, I am still using my original instrument cable, cos I'm a skinflint. Maybe one day I'll buy a better one! lol

[Bilbo]

While we are talking cables, can someone remind me of the difference between instrument (bass to amp) cables and speaker (amp to cab) cables. I have been told this but can't remember why. And, in the answer, can you clarify why you shouldn't use an instrument cable as a speaker cable and vice versa.

Yours in ignorance.

Rob

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='dood' post='138285' date='Feb 11 2008, 04:43 PM'][apologies for not reading the rest of the posts] Interestingly, at the last bass bash, OBBM handed me one of his instrument cables and we (I) a/b'd it against the lead I was using. My lead was a bog standard lead and may have been a different length to that of Dave's. I remember that I was convinced that even with the dull rumble of basses being played around me, Dave's cable had a clearer top end. I don't think it's something you'd notice in a band situation.. up loud, on stage, as it would be the same as notching up a treble control a few dB's.. but the fact that there was a difference, for what ever reason, remains.

On the subject of speaker cables, I swapped from using two metre x two mm2 cable to (once again, OBBM's) one metre x four mm2 cable and I am absolutely positive there was an improvement in tone. I switched back and forth several times too. I don't care what the reasons were.. There certainly wasn't any percieved improvement due to the cost of the products.. as the cable isn't exactly breaking the bank lol.

- i'd like to point out though, I am still using my original instrument cable, cos I'm a skinflint. Maybe one day I'll buy a better one! lol[/quote]

Next time, just to be sure, look away from the amp and get someone else to switch back and forth randomly between the cables four or five times, making you guess each time which one it is (or even better, which one you prefer). Then have him tell you whether you could consistently tell them apart, and if so which one you prefered. You might be right! You might be over-thinking! Who knows...?

This goes back to the placebo effect I guess...

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='138300' date='Feb 11 2008, 05:02 PM']While we are talking cables, can someone remind me of the difference between instrument (bass to amp) cables and speaker (amp to cab) cables. I have been told this but can't remember why. And, in the answer, can you clarify why you shouldn't use an instrument cable as a speaker cable and vice versa.

Yours in ignorance.

Rob[/quote]

I'm sure other will give you all the technical loads and capacitance etc BUT... bass to amp needs to be shielded, amp to cab doesn't and you need a chunky cable for amp to cab to handle the load whereas bass to amp you don't but you do require a much greater degree of flexibility in the cable for bass to amp.

[warwickhunt]

I'm sure I regurgitated the whole story of the 'blind test' that I did at my last place of work (a professional recording studio that recorded spoken books then duplicated by the thousand to tape). In summary I worked with 3 audiophiles who spent fortunes on interconnects. I poo-pooed their spending and so we did a blind test where I swapped 4 sets of interconnects from the works reference system (used for testing for QC). These interconnects ranged from the £0.99 leads that you get free with your first separates system through to a seriously expensive (well up into 3 figures) set and prices covered in between. It was stunningly obvious which was the cheapy set but it was really touch and go if anyone could tell the difference between the 3 more expensive sets. I jumbled up what went first etc and even left one set in twice just to catch people out (we ran the same test after dinner because the lads were miffed that I'd pulled that dirty trick). In fact nobody got 100% identification of the top 3 sets on either occasion but everyone spotted the duffer.

As has been stated above these hi-fi comparisons mean very little in the real world of gigging (or home recording) bassisits but I do believe it is a disservice to your gear to use the crappiest lead that there is. At least spend a few quid to get decent cables and plugs.

[obbm]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='138300' date='Feb 11 2008, 05:02 PM']While we are talking cables, can someone remind me of the difference between instrument (bass to amp) cables and speaker (amp to cab) cables. I have been told this but can't remember why. And, in the answer, can you clarify why you shouldn't use an instrument cable as a speaker cable and vice versa.

Yours in ignorance.

Rob[/quote]

I'm sure there's a sticky with this information somewhere but anyway hgere's my view.

Instrument cable is required to connect the 100 or so millivolt output from the instrument to the amplifier. Because this signal is so small it is succeptible to electrical noise and interference and so in order to protect against this the cable is co-axial with the signal running down the centre with a grounded shield or screen around the outside. We are talking milliamps and millivolts so the cable strands can be quite small.

Speaker cable is required to connect the output of a power amplifier to a speaker cabinet. In this case we are talking tens of volts and amps so the cable has to be a lot chunkier however because of the signal level it is no longer succeptible to interference and can be an unscreened 2-core cable capable of handling the power. For bass use 2.5 sq.mm. or higher.

Use a speaker cable to connect your instrument to the amp and you will suffer from severe hum and noise.

Use an instrument cable to connect your amp to your speaker and turn the wick up and you run the risk of blowing the cable and probably destroying the output stage of your amp at the same time.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='obbm' post='138341' date='Feb 11 2008, 05:35 PM']I'm sure there's a sticky with this information somewhere but anyway hgere's my view.

Instrument cable is required to connect the 100 or so millivolt output from the instrument to the amplifier. Because this signal is so small it is succeptible to electrical noise and interference and so in order to protect against this the cable is co-axial with the signal running down the centre with a grounded shield or screen around the outside. We are talking milliamps and millivolts so the cable strands can be quite small.

Speaker cable is required to connect the output of a power amplifier to a speaker cabinet. In this case we are talking tens of volts and amps so the cable has to be a lot chunkier however because of the signal level it is no longer succeptible to interference and can be an unscreened 2-core cable capable of handling the power. For bass use 2.5 sq.mm. or higher.

Use a speaker cable to connect your instrument to the amp and you will suffer from severe hum and noise.

Use an instrument cable to connect your amp to your speaker and turn the wick up and you run the risk of blowing the cable and probably destroying the output stage of your amp at the same time.[/quote]

Succinctly put Dave

See I told you someone would be able to give you the eloquent, technical stuff!

[6stringbassist]

I have a few quality cables, a Vovox, a Zaolla, an Evidence audio lyric, and I also have a cable from Bayeau cables in the US which uses Canare cable.
I also have some planet waves cables, I can hear a difference between each of the cables, and there is a definite difference between the higher end ones and the planet waves cable.

The Vovox uses a separate conductor for the the send and return signals [url="http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/00_01_01.html"]http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/00_01_01.html[/url]

Zaolla use silver conductors which have lower resistivity than copper [url="http://www.zaolla.com/zaolla_product.html"]http://www.zaolla.com/zaolla_product.html[/url]

Evidence audio [url="http://www.evidenceaudio.com//product.html"]http://www.evidenceaudio.com//product.html[/url]

The evidence audio cable is currently for sale by the way.

[Dood]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='138317' date='Feb 11 2008, 05:13 PM']Next time, just to be sure, look away from the amp and get someone else to switch back and forth randomly between the cables four or five times, making you guess each time which one it is (or even better, which one you prefer). Then have him tell you whether you could consistently tell them apart, and if so which one you prefered. You might be right! You might be over-thinking! Who knows...?

This goes back to the placebo effect I guess...[/quote]

I think with the instrument cable it would be worth doing again, but I do expect the same results, as it wasn't a particularly good one, certainly not a name brand. The speaker cables was a noticeable difference though. You have had to have a prblem with your ears to have not noticed it, especially in the top end. This was the case with both pairs of cables, as I used to run stereo. My preference was the clearer sound out of the 2.

Dunno if I would notice the difference at the moment though, I've had a cough/cold for a few days and I don't think my lugs are working right lol lol!!!

[Bilbo]

Thanks chaps (assuming you are chaps) - I now know more than I did at 4 p.m. today.

Muchos gracias!

[BassBod]

I use good quality "standard" cables (from OBBM or Orchid Electronics) with neutrik connectors and Van Damm cable - well made and tough so they are good value for money. I've got one posh cable from MIT that I bought cheap when the UK distributors were selling them off ( I guess 'cause bass players won't normally spend £80 on a wire..)

Its got mysterious plastic boxes near each plug and its labelled "guitar/amp" at either end because its supposed to sound better if used in the right direction. Or they think we're stupid and will forget where to put the other end. It does sound slightly "fuller" and "brighter" at home, with nothing else but amp hiss to listen to...but in any real world environment I couldn't tell the difference.....and its going to get stepped on and covered in beer just like every other cable.

Anyone want it?

BB