Key signitures missing

[iconic]

Just lately I have been getting a few tunes from sheet music (proper notation!) but rarely have I seen anything with a key signiture....unless I'm looking in the wrong place?

example: I worked out that this must be F major...I say must be, it has a Bb and F maj seems to work, the tune isn't important...unless I need to purchase the actual music and then I get the key?

Edited April 25, 2011 by iconic

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210624' date='Apr 25 2011, 08:46 AM']Just lately I have been getting a few tunes from sheet music (proper notation!) but rarely have I seen anything with a key signiture....unless I'm looking in the wrong place?

example: I worked out that this must be F major...I say must be, it has a Bb and F maj seems to work, the tune isn't important...unless I need to purchase the actual music and then I get the key?[/quote]
That's key signature of C major - no sharps or flats.

[Doddy]

The first thing that I noticed about that particular transcription,other than the fact that it's a keyboard part,is that at the bottom it says 'recorded a whole step higher'. It seems to me that it has been transposed down to C for ease.
I wouldn't say that it was in F from looking at that one page either,it looks like C major to me,so the recording would have been in D (two sharps).

[lowdown]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210624' date='Apr 25 2011, 08:46 AM']Just lately I have been getting a few tunes from sheet music (proper notation!) but rarely have I seen anything with a key signiture....unless I'm looking in the wrong place?

example: I worked out that this must be F major...I say must be, it has a Bb and F maj seems to work, the tune isn't important...unless I need to purchase the actual music and then I get the key?[/quote]


Why is the tune not important?
From that short PDF you have attached, it looks like its in the key of 'C' - so no sharps or flats.

When you purchase Pop 'Sheet Music' it is usually a Piano sheet, and more than likely just a basic guide with melody, chords
and basic other stuff. But will certainly have key signatures.
For people having trouble transcribing stuff, these Piano sheets would be a good starting point for working stuff out.


For Bass specific lines [if thats what you are after], you would be better of looking for the stuff people post up in the Theory section, [there is also plenty of links to external sites for written Bass lines in the section]
Its a shame they can not be all listed into one post for easy finding & reference.

By the way - I think the original from your tune posted is in 'D' - 2 sharps.




Garry

Edited April 25, 2011 by lowdown

[iconic]

cheers guys thanks for your patience!

...never noticed the step change at the bottom...I really should read what I'm reading, but the piano bassline does work with those notes written...? Could the step apply to the treble only?

Also found this...

[url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_unsigned_bands/deniece_williams_-_lets_hear_it_for_the_boy_crd.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_uns...the_boy_crd.htm[/url]

I found A Bb B C D E F G kicking around here...and as my knowledge of scales is limited can't think what would fit these notes, so I'm guessing there is a key change at "Cause every time he pulls me near...."

[Dad3353]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210690' date='Apr 25 2011, 11:27 AM']...as my knowledge of scales is limited can't think what would fit these notes...[/quote]
Good afternoon, iconic...
I rather think that this could help you (free download...)...
[url="http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazzguitar_lessons.html"]Jazz Guitar Chords Ebook...[/url]
...it's aimed at jazz guitar, but the basic info. on chord formation etc. applies equally to bass. Personally I found it invaluable, and very clear in its explanations. It costs nothing, and could open a lot of doors for you, imho.
Hope this helps...

[Doddy]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210690' date='Apr 25 2011, 10:27 AM']cheers guys thanks for your patience!

...never noticed the step change at the bottom...I really should read what I'm reading, but the piano bassline does work with those notes written...? Could the step apply to the treble only?

Also found this...

[url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_unsigned_bands/deniece_williams_-_lets_hear_it_for_the_boy_crd.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_uns...the_boy_crd.htm[/url]

I found A Bb B C D E F G kicking around here...and as my knowledge of scales is limited can't think what would fit these notes, so I'm guessing there is a key change at "Cause every time he pulls me near...."[/quote]

The transposition will apply to the whole thing,not just one clef.

Taking a quick look at those chords it would appear the the tune is in C major,but modulates up to D major for the chorus. The chord qualities of A and D major and B minor include the relevant sharps (F# and C#) to support this.

[lowdown]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210624' date='Apr 25 2011, 08:46 AM']Just lately I have been getting a few tunes from sheet music (proper notation!) but rarely have I seen anything with a key signiture....unless I'm looking in the wrong place?

example: I worked out that this must be F major...I say must be, it has a Bb and F maj seems to work, the tune isn't important...unless I need to purchase the actual music and then I get the key?[/quote]


Here you go, i was feeling nice with nothing to do. Verse/Intro in C major - Chorus in D major.
You will need to add your own grace/slur notes etc [in the intro G up to A], and do you own ending or whatever
[attachment=78372:Lets_Hea..._The_Boy.pdf]





Garry

Edited April 25, 2011 by lowdown

[iconic]

[quote name='lowdown' post='1210908' date='Apr 25 2011, 02:30 PM']Here you go, i was feeling nice with nothing to do. Verse/Intro in C major - Chorus in D major.
You will need to add your own grace/slur notes etc [in the intro G up to A], and do you own ending or whatever
[attachment=78372:Lets_Hea..._The_Boy.pdf]





Garry[/quote]


wow, many, many thanks Gary

[iconic]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1210826' date='Apr 25 2011, 01:24 PM']The transposition will apply to the whole thing,not just one clef.

Taking a quick look at those chords it would appear the the tune is in C major,but modulates up to D major for the chorus. The chord qualities of A and D major and B minor include the relevant sharps (F# and C#) to support this.[/quote]


cheers

[iconic]

[quote name='Dad3353' post='1210810' date='Apr 25 2011, 01:11 PM']Good afternoon, iconic...
I rather think that this could help you (free download...)...
[url="http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazzguitar_lessons.html"]Jazz Guitar Chords Ebook...[/url]
...it's aimed at jazz guitar, but the basic info. on chord formation etc. applies equally to bass. Personally I found it invaluable, and very clear in its explanations. It costs nothing, and could open a lot of doors for you, imho.
Hope this helps...[/quote]


and again, many thanks for this link, great stuff

[ZMech]

A rule of thumb i've noticed seems to be that the opening chord of the song is pretty much always the root, and will often end on it too.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Zach' post='1211590' date='Apr 26 2011, 12:17 PM']A rule of thumb i've noticed seems to be that the opening chord of the song is pretty much always the root, and will often end on it too.[/quote]
It's a rule of thumb that can lead to many a car crash too, sadly.

"Autumn Leaves, key of B minor..."

[lowdown]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1211634' date='Apr 26 2011, 01:09 PM']It's a rule of thumb that can lead to many a car crash too, sadly.

"Autumn Leaves, key of B minor..."

[/quote]

Quite....

Autumn Leaves is usually [Fake Book - and possibly written key].....E minor [G major/ 1#]




Garry

[Dad3353]

[quote name='lowdown' post='1211650' date='Apr 26 2011, 02:36 PM']...Autumn Leaves is usually [Fake Book - and possibly written key].....E minor [G major/ 1#]...[/quote]Good afternoon, all...
I would concur with Garry here; E minor. The last chord is more usually the best indication of the key (resolution..?); although there are, of course, exceptions, they tend to be rare (at least in 'standard' music, death metal may be different, I wouldn't know...). 'Girl from Ipanema', for instance, ends on a Gb7, preceded by an FMaj7. The key is F (1b...), the Gb7 is a sort of musical 'suspension' for effect.
The general 'rule of thumb' for me would be the last chord...
Hope this helps...

[ras52]

[quote name='iconic' post='1210690' date='Apr 25 2011, 10:27 AM']. . .
[url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_unsigned_bands/deniece_williams_-_lets_hear_it_for_the_boy_crd.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc_uns...the_boy_crd.htm[/url]

I found A Bb B C D E F G kicking around here...and as my knowledge of scales is limited can't think what would fit these notes, so I'm guessing there is a key change at "Cause every time he pulls me near...."[/quote]

To say a piece is "in C" is only to say that C (major) is its "home" key, and it is free to roam away from its home :-). In this case the verse is in C and the chorus is in D, although if written out you may or may not see a key sig change at the chorus, depending on the writer's preference.

The Bb chord - which doesn't occur "naturally" in C or D - is part of modulatory passage between the two. At that point it's not "in" a particular key but on the move between two tonal centres. (With apologies if grandmothers are being taught to suck eggs.)

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='Dad3353' post='1211730' date='Apr 26 2011, 03:14 PM']Good afternoon, all...
I would concur with Garry here; E minor. The last chord is more usually the best indication of the key (resolution..?); although there are, of course, exceptions, they tend to be rare (at least in 'standard' music, death metal may be different, I wouldn't know...). 'Girl from Ipanema', for instance, ends on a Gb7, preceded by an FMaj7. The key is F (1b...), the Gb7 is a sort of musical 'suspension' for effect.
The general 'rule of thumb' for me would be the last chord...
Hope this helps...[/quote]
The Gb7 in Girl From Ipanema is a substitution chord for C7 and works because the diminished 5th interval of the 3rd and 7th of C7 (i.e. the notes E and Bb) is the same as the diminished 5th interval of the 7th and 3rd of Gb7 (the notes Bb and Fb, which is the enharmonic equivalent of the note E)...bit off-topic though!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dad3353' post='1211730' date='Apr 26 2011, 03:14 PM']Good afternoon, all...
I would concur with Garry here; E minor. The last chord is more usually the best indication of the key (resolution..?); although there are, of course, exceptions, they tend to be rare (at least in 'standard' music, death metal may be different, I wouldn't know...). 'Girl from Ipanema', for instance, ends on a Gb7, preceded by an FMaj7. The key is F (1b...), the Gb7 is a sort of musical 'suspension' for effect.
The general 'rule of thumb' for me would be the last chord...
Hope this helps...[/quote]

That's funny,everyone I play 'Autumn Leaves' with does it in G minor.

With '...Ipanema' although the last chord of the is a Gb7,everytime I've played it it tends to end on a Fmaj7-Gb7 vamp before resolving
to Fmaj7. The Gb7 really just acts as a turnaround as you play through the changes.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1211808' date='Apr 26 2011, 04:51 PM']That's funny,everyone I play 'Autumn Leaves' with does it in G minor.[/quote]
Indeed... but my point was that the first chord is the iv chord. If you find yourself playing with someone who assumes the key will be the first chord, you end up with a... *ahem* ..."novel" reharmonisation.

[Doddy]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1211813' date='Apr 26 2011, 04:55 PM']Indeed... but my point was that the first chord is the iv chord. If you find yourself playing with someone who assumes the key will be the first chord, you end up with a... *ahem* ..."novel" reharmonisation.[/quote]

Exactly.....I was referring to the others that said it's normally in E minor

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1211817' date='Apr 26 2011, 04:57 PM']Exactly.....I was referring to the others that said it's normally in E minor[/quote]
I know. I'm with ya.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1211817' date='Apr 26 2011, 04:57 PM']Exactly.....I was referring to the others that said it's normally in E minor[/quote]


Well its done in either key [Gm or Em] Depends on who' taking the head i suppose. I have played it equally in both keys over the years.
I think the Em/G came about from the early Fake book days,
when i think it was based around a Bill Evans recording of the time that was floating around.
Of course singers/turns tend to do it in just about every key going.
Busking changes wise, its an easier tune [or should be] because it goes nicely around the chord cycle and nothing to trip you up.

For anyone interested, i picked these Transcriptions up a couple of years ago.
One is a Neils Pederson Version, the other Ron Carter.
[attachment=78472:Autumn_L...Pederson.pdf]
[attachment=78471:Autumn_L...n_Carter.pdf]

On another note was Ipanema not written in some other key - like Db?

Goes to show the importance of playing/practicing in all keys - It toughens up the ears,




Garry

Edited April 26, 2011 by lowdown