MIM PBass Badass Bridge Issues

[absentmindeduk]

Hey guys, wondered if anyone may be able to offer a bit of help...

I fitted a Leo Quan II Badass bridge to my MIM PBass about a year ago, truth be told, its not been right since. I just use this bass as a backup, so it hasn't been a massive issue, but it plays pants. Im no whizz with setups etc and have had a tech do them all in the past, but money constrains mean Im going to have to learn! lol.

One thing I have noticed is that it says here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=193&st=0"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=193&st=0[/url] that it is a simple straight swap for the new bridge (which it was in terms of screwing it in) and the string length bridge saddle to nut is the same, but the total length of the bridge is longer, so the string end-to-end is now approx 1.5cm longer - which is whats caused my neck to bow I suppose?? Also, I didnt bother to file any grooves into the bridge saddles, though they have made a bit of a groove on their own now as they've been on a while.

Question is really, when it comes to adjusting the truss-rod to see if I can get the action down a bit (it's terrible at the top to the neck), does anyone know what sort of measurements I should be looking at around the 12th?
The guitarist in my band does his guitars and suggested fr a guitar he usually just holds the 6th and 1st srings down (separately) at the first and the highest fret and there should be a tiny gap around the 8th..

Has anyone else had the same issue and can offer any pearls of wisdom?


Just to make my thread more pretty, Ill give you a piccy too.... ;-)

[attachment=78494:PIC_0618.JPG]

Thanks all,
Andy

[neilb]

Please explain "pants"???

[Ou7shined]

Follow [url="http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/setupmanual.html"]this[/url]. It'll keep ya right.

[- Matt -]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='1212675' date='Apr 27 2011, 02:29 PM']Hey guys, wondered if anyone may be able to offer a bit of help...
Question is really, when it comes to adjusting the truss-rod to see if I can get the action down a bit (it's terrible at the top to the neck), does anyone know what sort of measurements I should be looking at around the 12th?
The guitarist in my band does his guitars and suggested fr a guitar he usually just holds the 6th and 1st srings down (separately) at the first and the highest fret and there should be a tiny gap around the 8th..

Andy[/quote]


Andy,

The action and relief will depend on the neck radius. Here's a guide to what you should be looking to achieve, depending on your playing style:

Truss-Rod
Check your tuning. Install a capo at the 1st fret, depress the 4th string at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret
Neck Radius - Relief
7.25" - .014"
9.5" to 12" - .012"
15" to 17" - .010"

Using an imperial ruler, measure distance between bottom of strings and top of the 17th fret. Adjust bridge saddles to the height according to the chart, then re-tune. Experiment with the height until the desired sound and feel is achieved.
Neck Radius - String Height Bass Side - Treble Side
7.25" - 7/64" - 6/64"
9.5" to 12" - 6/64" - 5/64"
15" to 17" - 6/64" - 5/64"

Edited April 27, 2011 by - Matt -

[Ou7shined]

Ohh and the bridge being longer will have had nothing to do with your increased relief. It's most likely just down to atmospherics.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='1212675' date='Apr 27 2011, 02:29 PM']Hey guys, wondered if anyone may be able to offer a bit of help...

I fitted a Leo Quan II Badass bridge to my MIM PBass about a year ago, truth be told, its not been right since. I just use this bass as a backup, so it hasn't been a massive issue, but it plays pants. Im no whizz with setups etc and have had a tech do them all in the past, but money constrains mean Im going to have to learn! lol.

One thing I have noticed is that it says here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=193&st=0"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=193&st=0[/url] that it is a simple straight swap for the new bridge (which it was in terms of screwing it in) and the string length bridge saddle to nut is the same, but the total length of the bridge is longer, so the string end-to-end is now approx 1.5cm longer - which is whats caused my neck to bow I suppose?? Also, I didnt bother to file any grooves into the bridge saddles, though they have made a bit of a groove on their own now as they've been on a while.

Question is really, when it comes to adjusting the truss-rod to see if I can get the action down a bit (it's terrible at the top to the neck), does anyone know what sort of measurements I should be looking at around the 12th?
The guitarist in my band does his guitars and suggested fr a guitar he usually just holds the 6th and 1st srings down (separately) at the first and the highest fret and there should be a tiny gap around the 8th..

Has anyone else had the same issue and can offer any pearls of wisdom?


Just to make my thread more pretty, Ill give you a piccy too.... ;-)

[attachment=78494:PIC_0618.JPG]

Thanks all,
Andy[/quote]
Hey Andy,
1st off - I have a MiM P-bass with Badass || & it's no trouble, plays as good as gold!

I don't follow why you think it would have caused the neck to bow? Anyway yes you need to adjust the truss rod to get the neck right before you can sort the action via the bridge saddles. I use a 2' (600mm) steel rule on edge along the frets to measure the gap at (usualy) the 8th fret, which I like to have about .015" or a business card thickness. .010" minimum I'd say.
As your guitarist has done, holding strings down at first & last frets gives the same "straight line" but the steel rule is stiffer!
When your neck is right, then you can set the intonation & play with the height of strings at the bridge.
EZ
Cheerz, John
EDIT: 'kin L you lot are quick! Matt's measurements posted above are probably spot on!

Edited April 27, 2011 by KiOgon

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

In my experience a Badass (or similar) is great on a Jazz bass - but sucks all the punch out of a Precision. I'd put the BBOT back on. YMMV!

[absentmindeduk]

[quote name='neilb' post='1212683' date='Apr 27 2011, 02:40 PM']Please explain "pants"???[/quote]

@Neil:

I thought 'pants' was pretty technical... lol.
See this pic;
[attachment=78495:PIC_0619.JPG]

When I leave the instrument alone, I can comfortably fit 2 stacked 1p coins under the string at the 12th, making it horrible to play anything at the top of the neck. By my reakoning, thats an action of 3mm or 0.125" at the 12th unfretted.


@Matt:

When you say;
Using an imperial ruler, measure distance between bottom of strings and top of the 17th fret.

Do you mean like this:
[attachment=78497:PIC_0620.JPG]

If so, by my reakoning thats 16.1875", yet the string height there is slightly over 0.125", you think it should be approx 0.078 - 0.093?

Also, a capo?
Sacreligious! I play the bass! lol.
-Can't check 8th fret without one (or another pair of hands), so will have to do that later...

@Ou7shined:

That link looks pretty good, cheers man!

@KiOgon:

How do you find the MiM compares to the US ones?
IMO, my MiM P is rubbish compared to my US Jazz; Im hoping it's just cos Ive trashed it tho... :S

Thanks all,
Andy

[absentmindeduk]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1212713' date='Apr 27 2011, 03:14 PM']In my experience a Badass (or similar) is great on a Jazz bass - but sucks all the punch out of a Precision. I'd put the BBOT back on. YMMV! [/quote]

@Jean-Luc:

I did it because something had to be done; in comparasin with my US Jazz, this bass sounds and feels horrible!
-I thought a few tweaks might help, but think Ive done the opposite at present! :S

I swapped the nut for a Tusq-nut, the pic guard from a white one, fender-schaller locking end pins and the badass as well.
I'd considered hitting it with a Bartollini passive too... but I'd loathe to spend another £100 on it!

[- Matt -]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='1212751' date='Apr 27 2011, 03:49 PM']@Matt:

When you say;
Using an imperial ruler, measure distance between bottom of strings and top of the 17th fret.

Do you mean like this:
[attachment=78497:PIC_0620.JPG]

If so, by my reakoning thats 16.1875", yet the string height there is slightly over 0.125", you think it should be approx 0.078 - 0.093?

Also, a capo?
Sacreligious! I play the bass! lol.
-Can't check 8th fret without one (or another pair of hands), so will have to do that later...

Andy[/quote]

No, from the top of the metal fret to the bottom of the string directly above the fret.
[url="http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/images/action/measure.jpg"]http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/images/action/measure.jpg[/url]

[Noisyjon]

Here's a link to a simple, good & practical way to set up your bass from one of the Masters.
[url="http://www.chicagobassdoctor.com/setup.html"]http://www.chicagobassdoctor.com/setup.html[/url]

It helped me sort out my Lakland P bass a treat!

Regards,
Jon

[KiOgon]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='1212783' date='Apr 27 2011, 04:14 PM']I swapped the nut for a Tusq-nut,[/quote]

That may not help Have you checked string height at the nut? Or to put it another way is the nut slotted 'right' for your neck & strings?

EZ test - hold down each string 1 at a time at 2nd fret - then tap each string onto 1st fret, there should be only a very small clearance = a fag paper between the 1st fret & string. If strings are too high at the nut you'll be struggling down the rest of the neck.

Cheerz, John

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1212881' date='Apr 27 2011, 05:19 PM']That has me wondering , when you screwed the Badass on did you do anything to the saddle height or leave it as it left the factory??[/quote]

Sounds to me that as this is one of the BAs without the pre-cut grooves, the saddles need some height adjustment. I`ve had (pre-grooved) BAs on a fair few basses and never had any problems. If anything, I had to raise the height on these, as the action was too low.

Have a look at the old BBOT, and measure how high the saddles are on that, then do the same with the BA. Also bear in mind the saddles on the BBOT will have a groove in, which is at least 1mm. This should give an indication as to where to go from here, re needing to lower the saddles.

The above post should also be followed. Two things have been changed on the bass that affect string height. The bridge is easier adjusted, but the nut will also affect this issue.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Lozz196

[absentmindeduk]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1212889' date='Apr 27 2011, 05:25 PM']That may not help Have you checked string height at the nut? Or to put it another way is the nut slotted 'right' for your neck & strings?

EZ test - hold down each string 1 at a time at 2nd fret - then tap each string onto 1st fret, there should be only a very small clearance = a fag paper between the 1st fret & string. If strings are too high at the nut you'll be struggling down the rest of the neck.

Cheerz, John[/quote]

@ KiOgon:

Yea, the nut seems fine IMO. I had to fit it as the old one cracked.. Made sure at the time it was filed to the same height as the one that came off.

@Lozz196:

Yes, when I bought it, there wasnt a badass that had pre-cut grooves (Ive had the bridge for years), I never filed grooves in it and left it as was. They now naturally have worn a bit of a groove, but not much. Looking at the original bridge, it is slightly lower for the E and G strings, middle 2 are fine.

All of the bridge saddles are as low as they go too at present. Intonation was set only.

I think from here the way to go is to adjusting the truss rod and maybe filing grooves into the bridge (Im not overly keen on that, cos Ill prob tool it up!).
-Still even when thats done, I reakon I wont be able to move the saddle height much cos its taller than the BBOT (I assume that is the old bridge, though I dunno what BBOT stands for?) lol.

Thanks guys,

[Dave Vader]

Had this with a gotoh, the bridge didn't go low enough for a decent action, answer is to go back to the BBOT (bent bit of tin, quaint euphemism for old style fender bridges) or route a hole to drop the BA into.

[absentmindeduk]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1213737' date='Apr 28 2011, 12:29 PM']Had this with a gotoh, the bridge didn't go low enough for a decent action, answer is to go back to the BBOT (bent bit of tin, quaint euphemism for old style fender bridges) or route a hole to drop the BA into.[/quote]

Thanks man, reakon that might be the case. Routing it would be a mare tho!
LOL at BBOT!

[KiOgon]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1213737' date='Apr 28 2011, 12:29 PM']Had this with a gotoh, the bridge didn't go low enough for a decent action, answer is to go back to the BBOT (bent bit of tin, quaint euphemism for old style fender bridges) or route a hole to drop the BA into.[/quote]
No no - the neck needs a shim under the heel - there's a sticky somewhere I think.

Cheerz, John

Edit: Have you read this? - [url="http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:tech:badass_bridges"]http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:tech:badass_bridges[/url]

Edited April 28, 2011 by KiOgon

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1213904' date='Apr 28 2011, 03:56 PM']No no - the neck needs a shim under the heel - there's a sticky somewhere I think...[/quote]
Totally. Some "advice" on here is shocking.

[kerley]

Agree that the extra thickness of the Badass can raise the action and even with the saddles at their lowest can still be higher than the BBOT saddles if they were also set low to give desired action.
I had same problem on a P Bass I had a few years back but thought it was just me with my liking for an extremely low action.

One thing to do is file some slots as that will lower the strings but not sure how deep you would want to file them. Might be easier to eBay the Badass as they always sell well!

Edited April 28, 2011 by kerley

[KiOgon]

[quote name='kerley' post='1214263' date='Apr 28 2011, 09:56 PM']One thing to do is file some slots as that will lower the strings but not sure how deep you would want to file them. Might be easier to eBay the Badass as they always sell well![/quote]

Bl00dy L - some people just like to do things the hard way I s'pose!

Or how to bu55er up a Badass

[kerley]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1214550' date='Apr 29 2011, 08:37 AM']Bl00dy L - some people just like to do things the hard way I s'pose!

Or how to bu55er up a Badass [/quote]

It is only a bridge, don't get too sentimental!

Filing it is an easy option and they are arguably supposed to be filed anyway.

Other options would be;

- Routing the body to make the bridge sit lower (bit drastic)
- Shimming the neck to make the neck higher (which is what I think I tried and had no ill effects and is reversable)

[Lfalex v1.1]

I filed slots in the BA II that I fitted to my Squier VMJ. I've posted how to do it- it's in the (previously posted) link to the badass sticky in "repairs and technical".
It can't be all bad. That bass plays superbly.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='kerley' post='1214557' date='Apr 29 2011, 08:50 AM']It is only a bridge, don't get too sentimental!

Filing it is an easy option and they are arguably supposed to be filed anyway.

Other options would be;

- Routing the body to make the bridge sit lower (bit drastic)
- Shimming the neck to make the neck higher (which is what I think I tried and had no ill effects and is reversable)[/quote]
I'm not getting senti or mental but - Yes I know some Badass brides have 'non filed' saddles & that degree of filing is not in question. It might only be a bridge but it seems that some people pay a lot of money for them & if the saddles are filed out too deep IMV I'd call it bu55ered!

I imagined the depth of filing that might be required & the time/effort to do so, to remedy a problem (high action) that has a far simpler resolution.

As the wiki link has been posted already that explains the reccomended course of action I find it strange that some people are still coming up with IMO more difficult alternatives.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='1214581' date='Apr 29 2011, 09:17 AM']I'm not getting senti or mental but - Yes I know some Badass brides have 'non filed' saddles & that degree of filing is not in question. It might only be a bridge but it seems that some people pay a lot of money for them & if the saddles are filed out too deep IMV I'd call it bu55ered!

I imagined the depth of filing that might be required & the time/effort to do so, to remedy a problem (high action) that has a far simpler resolution.

As the wiki link has been posted already that explains the reccomended course of action I find it strange that some people are still coming up with IMO more difficult alternatives.[/quote]
I agree.
Firstly, people who file them themselves always (from what I've seen) make a bollocks of it* and secondly, once a BAII has been filed it is effectively a specific custom fit for that guitar only*, which is fine if it's a keeper. There are alternatives to wrecking a perfectly good bridge.
I've put two basses out with ungrooved BAII's on, neither of which I had to resort to filing.

* admittedly this doesn't seem to have any effect in resale value as people will still buy any old BA just because of the name.

[kerley]

Fair enough, some people can't use a file and would probably stuff it up but take the point that it would then be a custom bridge. But then others may be happier using a file than removing neck and shimming it.

I stand by the fact it is still only a bridge and worrying about resale seems at odds with the vast amounts most people lose by swapping out basses and amps every 10 minutes