Driver confusion

[squire5]

This week I've had cause to replace 2 drivers in my Trace Elliot 4x10 cab.The existing drivers must have been replaced before as there are Eminence ME10s in there at the moment.However,my local dealer tells me that the equivalent nowadays is designated Alpha 10.Now in comparison, the magnet on the MEs is much larger than the Alpha,which is rated at 150w compared to the MEs 200w.How can this be an equivalent?The ME10s are now discontinued,so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.The Alphas seem a lightweight substitute,but hey,what do I know??

[Mr. Foxen]

I reckon disbelieve the dealer, and email Celestion, telling them the whole situation, and see what they recommend. The wattage can change, but if they are the same magnet material, changing mass that much would probably shift around all sorts of parameters.

[xgsjx]

I'd find out what the cab volume needs to be in respect of having 4 drivers in it & see what drivers match with it.
Don't get caught up in watts, just make sure the ohms are the same

[squire5]

Well the thing is,the Emis have been in the cabinet for at least 10 years,but 2 have already been replaced last year due to the cones disintegrating around the seam( which may or may not have been due to the introduction of a 5 string bass).The same thing has happened to the remaining 2 this week,but as I say,on removing the 2 faulty drivers,I noticed the difference.I dont have any time to experiment as I'm gigging tonight.
I'll see how it goes and maybe tomorrow,I'll check the other 2 replacements and see what they were.If they're Alpha 10s,then it'll be a matched 4some,and should be OK,do you think?Thanx.

[Ghost_Bass]

Start hunting for original Celestion drivers for that cab or get some of the new ones (mail Celestion or Peavey to ask what thwy recommend for a modern substitute).

Eminence has great drivers but Trace's sound is all about Celestions IMO! And they don't desintegrate!!! I play 5-string through my Boxer15 with a 6" (or is it 8"... humm...) driver and it's still intact and pumping huge sounds (for a 15W amp)!

Cheers

Edited April 28, 2011 by Ghost_Bass

[xgsjx]

Your 5 won't damage speakers, wear & tear or abuse will.

Like the above says, email one or two of the manufacturers for what should be in your cab.

[Mr. Foxen]

According to the Eminence site, the Alpha 10s are for small sealed cabs. Fairly sure that Trace is ported. So basically, never listen to anything that dealer says.

[squire5]

You're right MF,on all 3 counts.Dealers will say anything to get a sale.However,I don't have the moolah to fit new Celestions.If I had checked the website beforehand,then I would have challenged the dealer,but,hey I didn't,so mea culpa!I'm gigging tonight,so I'll keep a close eye(and ear)on proceedings.These 2 drivers cost me a ton,so I'm relying on Eminences reputation to win through.Total power handling is well in excess of what I would normally use anyway,and I've been happy with the Trace/Eminence combination sound for many years.
I still think that the 5 string has something to do with it though,XGS,as the cabinet suffers no abuse that I'm aware of.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='squire5' post='1213864' date='Apr 28 2011, 10:01 AM']These 2 drivers cost me a ton,so I'm relying on Eminences reputation to win through.[/quote]
They shouldn't have, it's the least expensive driver they make.
In any event should you have to do any more driver replacement first choose the appropriate model based on the driver T/S specs and how it models in your cab, not the recommendation of a retailer. If the retailer really knew what he was talking about he'd be designing drivers and speakers, not selling them.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1213871' date='Apr 28 2011, 03:13 PM']They shouldn't have, it's the least expensive driver they make.
In any event should you have to do any more driver replacement first choose the appropriate model based on the driver T/S specs and how it models in your cab, not the recommendation of a retailer. If the retailer really knew what he was talking about he'd be designing drivers and speakers, not selling them. [/quote]

Hmm, I think I can make some pretty good calls on speakers at this point, Should I move into retail?

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='squire5' post='1213698' date='Apr 28 2011, 12:08 PM']This week I've had cause to replace 2 drivers in my Trace Elliot 4x10 cab.The existing drivers must have been replaced before as there are Eminence ME10s in there at the moment.However,my local dealer tells me that the equivalent nowadays is designated Alpha 10.Now in comparison, the magnet on the MEs is much larger than the Alpha,which is rated at 150w compared to the MEs 200w.How can this be an equivalent?The ME10s are now discontinued,so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.The Alphas seem a lightweight substitute,but hey,what do I know??[/quote]

I can tell you that the discontinued ME-10 was replaced by the Delta-10
I have a pair of ME-12's and I e-mailed Eminence for T/S parameters .. and they told me that the Delta range replaced the ME range

all the best

Chris

[squire5]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1213871' date='Apr 28 2011, 03:13 PM']They shouldn't have, it's the least expensive driver they make.
In any event should you have to do any more driver replacement first choose the appropriate model based on the driver T/S specs and how it models in your cab, not the recommendation of a retailer. If the retailer really knew what he was talking about he'd be designing drivers and speakers, not selling them. [/quote]

I tried a few dealers in England and while some of them quoted £30-£40 each,by the time you add on shipping,it would have come to the same thing.As I live in N.Ireland,I managed to source 2 in Belfast,at £50 each,and as I needed them quickly took that choice.The holiday weekend would probably have held things up further.Dearest quote? Maplins at £70 each.

[squire5]

[quote name='EddyGlee' post='1213914' date='Apr 28 2011, 04:06 PM']I can tell you that the discontinued ME-10 was replaced by the Delta-10
I have a pair of ME-12's and I e-mailed Eminence for T/S parameters .. and they told me that the Delta range replaced the ME range

all the best

Chris[/quote]

Chris,the blurb on the Eminence website says that the Delta 10 is optimized for lead guitar,so I'm more confused than ever.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='squire5' post='1213929' date='Apr 28 2011, 04:21 PM']Chris,the blurb on the Eminence website says that the Delta 10 is optimized for lead guitar,so I'm more confused than ever.[/quote]

Not sure you are looking at the right thing there:

[quote]Eminence recommend the DELTA 10 10"speaker for professional audio and bass guitar applications as a woofer/mid-bass or mid-range in vented monitors, satellites and multi-way enclosures.[/quote]

That sounds about right for your purpose. They look a lot like the drivers in some bass cabs I've seen, maybe SWR, or Warwick, grey cones and a big dust cap, not that that means much.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='squire5' post='1213929' date='Apr 28 2011, 11:21 AM']Chris,the blurb on the Eminence website says that the Delta 10 is optimized for lead guitar[/quote]Not the Delta 10. BTW, where it works best is in a PA top, the low end is too thin for good results with bass.

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='squire5' post='1213929' date='Apr 28 2011, 04:21 PM']Chris,the blurb on the Eminence website says that the Delta 10 is optimized for lead guitar,so I'm more confused than ever.[/quote]

I'm just quoting what Eminence e-mailed me a while back .. they said the Delta replaced the ME range for General PA and Bass Guitar,
I'm not saying there the greatest of Bass Speaker or have a super low end response but they replaced the speaker you mensioned! that was my only point!! .. so if your happy with what the ME gave you in your cab the Delta would do the same!!
I'm sure they are far better replacements for extended Bass response etc

but I will add.. after E-mailing Eminence I made a 2x12 cab with Eminence designer program and used 2x ME 12's in a ported 100 litre cab, I used the T/S parameters for the Delta 12's as they recommended, and they sound pretty good to be honest! suppose it's all about what you wanna get out of it .. but remember not everybody wants there vision to be blurred and to throw up after 10 mins with Sub Bass frequencies !!

all the best

Chris

[EddyGlee]

ps..
Delta-12(8 ohm) For high power bass in sound reinforcement systems, bass guitar combos, club music systems and stage monitors.

Eminence words not mine!!

Chris

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='EddyGlee' post='1214031' date='Apr 28 2011, 01:15 PM']ps..
Delta-12(8 ohm) For high power bass in sound reinforcement systems, bass guitar combos, club music systems and stage monitors.

Eminence words not mine!!

Chris[/quote]Eminence isn't above recommending drivers for more applications than they should. It's up to the consumer to check the specs and make sure of suitability. With only 2.4mm xmax I don't recommend it for bass unless it's for use with less than 50 watts. IMO 4mm is the minimum acceptable. 2.4mm is OK for what it should be used as, PA midbass, just like its smaller sibling.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1214146' date='Apr 28 2011, 08:09 PM']Eminence isn't above recommending drivers for more applications than they should. It's up to the consumer to check the specs and make sure of suitability. With only 2.4mm xmax I don't recommend it for bass unless it's for use with less than 50 watts. IMO 4mm is the minimum acceptable. 2.4mm is OK for what it should be used as, PA midbass, just like its smaller sibling.[/quote]

Is that for one or 4? 50 watts each in a 4x10 sounds enough.

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1214146' date='Apr 28 2011, 08:09 PM']Eminence isn't above recommending drivers for more applications than they should. It's up to the consumer to check the specs and make sure of suitability. With only 2.4mm xmax I don't recommend it for bass unless it's for use with less than 50 watts. IMO 4mm is the minimum acceptable. 2.4mm is OK for what it should be used as, PA midbass, just like its smaller sibling.[/quote]

hey Bill .. the standard Delta-12 isn't even that good mate with only 1.6mm xmax!
the Delta 12A is 2.4mm which must be the one your refering to!
but the Delta 12b is 2.7mm and the 12LF,12LFA,12LFC have 4.8mm xmax
but like i said earlier I'm not here to champion these drivers or even recommend them, I just was merely stating that the ME driver that the OP was talking about and seem pleased with was replaced by the Delta.

so I agree with what you say totally but I have also found that personally used in multiples can produce some pretty pleasing results!

regards

Chris

Edited April 28, 2011 by EddyGlee

[voxpop]

Try replacing all four with these celestion sets from Watford valves....

[url="http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.asp?id=4&man=171"]http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.asp?id=4&man=171[/url]

Hope this helps.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='EddyGlee' post='1214178' date='Apr 28 2011, 03:50 PM']hey Bill .. the standard Delta-12 isn't even that good mate with only 1.6mm xmax![/quote]The 'Standard' Delta 12 no longer exists, except as eight year old NOS. The 12A is 8 ohms, B 16 ohms. If there was a C it would be 4 ohms, but there isn't. The LF models are technically subwoofer drivers, but quite obsolete really, having no more xmax than the current neo fullrange drivers.
[quote]Is that for one or 4? 50 watts each in a 4x10 sounds enough.[/quote]Talking about the Delta 12 here. Rather than use four in a 4x12 I'd use two twelves that can handle 100 watts, for half the cab size and half the cost. When you get down to it the Beta 12 actually is better than the Delta. But the thermal rating of the Beta is 250w, the Delta 400w, and what sells is watts, not xmax. More than a few manufacturers have used Deltas when they shouldn't have based purely on the wattage ratings.

[squire5]

Well,the gig went OK and the ol' Trace was sounding as good as ever with it's new drivers.I don't know,but as long as the speakers are capable of handling the volume I'm using and sounding as they do,I don't think I've anything to worry about.I will,however,be keeping a wary eye open,as well as a wary ear! Input much appreciated.

[squire5]

Further to this,I managed to track down the original owner of this enclosure,and he told me that the original drivers were actually designated 'Trace Elliot' and that he actually had one that he had kept in his shed for what ever reason,and ,true enough it was.A lot flimsier than the Eminences that I've installed,I must say.He then told me that he had replaced those with much heftier units after about 5 years,and then,after that,the ME10s.So this unit has never had Celestions fitted.But with a couple gigs under it's belt since fitting the Alpha 10s,it's sounding fine.I've managed to procure an old HH 15" cab with an Eminence driver fitted,so I'm going to start using that in conjunction with the 4x10.
I still think that since starting to use the Squier P5,that this has been a major contributor to the problem.I use the low 'B' quite a lot,so having the 15" will actually cushion,or help to cushion the wear and tear on the 4x10.Time will tell,I guess.

Edited May 2, 2011 by squire5

[Merton]

The "Trace Elliot" branded speakers were made by Celestion