Bass maturity

[chilievans]

Do basses improove with age?

[Ou7shined]

Ooh I'll play.

No but the unsubstantiated, intangible BS spouted about them does.

In all seriousness it's a bit of an open-ended question.
For example if guy A prefers a satin neck but guy B doesn't, they both buy identical basses with gloss necks at the same time, as time goes by and the finish wears on the necks guy A perceives an improvement while guy B grows less impressed.

If you mean do they sound better as they mature? I'd say not. Magnets lose their strength over time so unless you prefer a quieter bass there is no improvement.

Inanimate object can't grow or self repair therefore degrade over time. It is currently fashionable to have a bass that looks old yet is physically functional eg no one goes "omg look how worn the gears on that tuners are, that's a fantastic example".
It seems worn aesthetics "improves" bass but if that wear affects the functionality then it's bad. M'kay.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Ou7shined

[chilievans]

Ok. Then why do people spend crazy money on old instruments?

[hillbilly deluxe]

I dont know,but i wish they'd stop.I used to buy vintage gear when it was still cheaper than new gear.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='chilievans' post='1215611' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:06 AM']Ok. Then why do people spend crazy money on old instruments?[/quote]
The logical answer is rarity.
But then again there is fashion, peer pressure and also the element of kudos that can be bought with a pre-worn guitar because people perceive you to be a more serious player if you play a battered old guitar like the greats do.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215608' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:02 AM']Ooh I'll play.

No but the unsubstantiated, intangible BS spouted about them does. [/quote]


So... can we just indulge a couple of questions from a wood numpty (i.e. me) to try to separate the BS from the fact?

1) If a bass is made with non-optimally-dried wood (i.e. probably most of the mass-produced basses on the planet), and the wood then dries out as it ages, can that offer any change/improvement in tone (acoustically at least... let's ignore for now the possibility that the electrics are more important)? (Or will it just knack the finish?)

2) I've read a fair bit of stuff (probably unrooted in reality) about woods somehow being "played in" over the years, particularly with acoustic guitars. Like the resonances "open up" or something. (Could be related to moisture content, I suppose, or could be something else... or purely psychological.) Thoughts?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1215622' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:15 AM']

So... can we just indulge a couple of questions from a wood numpty (i.e. me) to try to separate the BS from the fact?

1) If a bass is made with non-optimally-dried wood (i.e. probably most of the mass-produced basses on the planet), and the wood then dries out as it ages, can that offer any change/improvement in tone (acoustically at least... let's ignore for now the possibility that the electrics are more important)? (Or will it just knack the finish?)

2) I've read a fair bit of stuff (probably unrooted in reality) about woods somehow being "played in" over the years, particularly with acoustic guitars. Like the resonances "open up" or something. (Could be related to moisture content, I suppose, or could be something else... or purely psychological.) Thoughts?[/quote]
1) I believe it to be the latter..... you've seen my '80 G&L right?

2) I've never owned an instrument long enough to tell. Although I do have a 12 string Yamaha guitar which I've owned since the early 80's but I'm buggered if I can remember what it sounded like then compared to now.
My guess is that it's all just marketing spin and whimsical musings.
Unless you keep an instrument hermetically sealed and monitored it's moisture content us going to fluctuate with the ambient atmospherics. I guess glue might change it's characteristics irreversibly over time. I dunno.

[Grand Wazoo]

Well there is an element of truth in the fact that old seasoned timber resonate and responds much better to the touch and feel, than a fresh cut one with all the sap and glue stopping it to vibrate as good as the one where the glue has shrunk and the sap is all dried up, evaporated, whatever. Add to that the REAL road worn appeal and you have all the ingredients for a very desirable instrument. To me people buying new relic'd basses are fooling themselves because they are only paying for the worn out look but without the mileage and real timber ageing effect that I have mentioned. You just ain't getting the real thing, are you? So yeah you'd be a muppet to pay £3000 for a Fender Custom Shop relic'd job.

Just ask a concert violin soloist how much he is prepared to pay for a 100 years old Stradivarius (we are talking £70-80 thousand average, by the way) and then you get an idea as to why to a professional orchestra violinist spending that money is essential to their job.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215636' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:32 AM']Unless you keep an instrument hermetically sealed and monitored...[/quote]
...to act as a control instrument in a decades-long experiment involving the acquisition of not one, but at least [b]two[/b] new instruments... hmmm...

As a musician, GAS-fiend and former scientist, I'M TOTALLY ON IT. Just need to build a hermetically sealed stronghold. Oh, and I need to move house first in order to accommodate the apparatus.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1215637' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:33 AM']Well there is an element of truth in the fact that old seasoned timber resonate and responds much better to the touch and feel, than a fresh cut one.....[/quote]
That's interesting GW. Can go into more detail of your experience of this please.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1215646' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:40 AM']...to act as a control instrument in a decades-long experiment involving the acquisition of not one, but at least [b]two[/b] new instruments... hmmm...

As a musician, GAS-fiend and former scientist, I'M TOTALLY ON IT. Just need to build a hermetically sealed stronghold. Oh, and I need to move house first in order to accommodate the apparatus. [/quote]
Don't forget to tell us how you get on.

[icastle]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1215622' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:15 AM']1) If a bass is made with non-optimally-dried wood (i.e. probably most of the mass-produced basses on the planet), and the wood then dries out as it ages, can that offer any change/improvement in tone (acoustically at least... let's ignore for now the possibility that the electrics are more important)? (Or will it just knack the finish?)[/quote]

Depends at which point the wood is being dried.
If it's at the pre-production phase then there may be a small difference.
If it's post production then most basses are sealed with layers of primer so the chances of the wood drying out are seriously curtailed.

[AttitudeCastle]

Supposidly, as all the wood in the older instruments was from trees left un touched for much longer they sound better.

Yamamahs super BBs are treated to imitate this older wood as again [i]supposidly[/i] there is always sap in wood (even in minute amounts) and as it ages it crystalises and "how far along being crystalised" as it were is what effects the sound and Yamaha use stuff (soundwaves and pressure is my guess) to artificaly crystalise the sap, in the same way that "fake" diamonds and "fake" amber are made, and by "fake" i mean the ones which classed as real but are made in a lab or studio etc as you can tell the difference in the shapping and the structure of the molecules

I don't know what truth is in that, but that is a mix of what i've heard, and what i'd guess!

[JTUK]

The good ones survived and the bad ones ended up as firewood...most likely

And people forget that when Hendrix played a strat it was probably no more than 5 years old.

[skej21]

[quote name='chilievans' post='1215588' date='Apr 30 2011, 10:31 AM']Do basses improve with age?[/quote]

Yes and No.

If you buy a bass that you keep for an extended period of time (for example, my first bass I've had for about 12 years) I do believe that your bass evolves with you. The bass does change as a result of wear and I think on a personal and specific/individual level, you evolve and get comfortable with the 'feel' of that specific instrument to you, meaning that (to you) it's improved as your playing is more natural and better on a instrument you're comfortable with.

If I pick up my first bass I know it back-to-front as soon as I pick it up, despite the fact that it's nothing like it was when I first got it 12 years ago. The bass has evolved WITH ME (as I've improved), which I believe is the difference.

Having a bass that matured with someone else is just as alien to me when I pick it up as a brand new bass, so I don't see the hype in buying a vintage bass.

Edited April 30, 2011 by skej21

[deepbass5]

I think the general opinion across the music industry is that all instruments can improve. Due to sound being generated from vibrations, and so how well the instrument vibrates will add to the ease that each tone is produced.
Brass players believe this also and as an ex Trombone player, the thought is that you need to expose the instrument to the notes you play in the range the instrument covers so lining up the molecular structure within the instrument to be more sympathetic to those frequencies. This is where I believe dead spots come from. No one piece of wood will grow the same or be cut the same so it is quite likely to find certain frequencies will not vibrate or talk as well as others. Some may also be over emphasised which may not be nice.
I think the first thing to take on board is there are good and bad instruments and seek those out. You may want the sunburst P bass in the shop but the blue one sounds best.
There are probably a lot of classical musicians out there that will agree a well made instrument will probably improve with age, and a dog will probably always be a dog.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='icastle' post='1215650' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:43 AM']Depends at which point the wood is being dried.
If it's at the pre-production phase then there may be a small difference.
If it's post production then most basses are sealed with layers of primer so the chances of the wood drying out are seriously curtailed.[/quote]
True, although the area around screws holes provide a great opportunity for moisture ingression.

[icastle]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215619' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:12 AM']But then again there is fashion, peer pressure and also the element of kudos that can be bought with a pre-worn guitar because people perceive you to be a more serious player if you play a battered old guitar like the greats do.[/quote]

I wonder if the same would work if Jeremy Clarkson to start driving around in a knackered old Vauxhall Chevette...

The market for spray on rust, custom dented doors and patchwork body panels could be massive...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1215657' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:48 AM']Supposidly, as all the wood in the older instruments was from trees left un touched for much longer they sound better....[/quote]
I'll buy this. Denser wood is more resonant. Fact.

edit : Although does the wood in my 30 year old G&L make it sound noticeably better than it's modern counterpart's?

Edited April 30, 2011 by Ou7shined

[icastle]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1215657' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:48 AM']Yamamahs super BBs are treated to imitate this older wood as again [i]supposidly[/i] there is always sap in wood (even in minute amounts) and as it ages it crystalises and "how far along being crystalised" as it were is what effects the sound and Yamaha use stuff (soundwaves and pressure is my guess) to artificaly crystalise the sap, in the same way that "fake" diamonds and "fake" amber are made, and by "fake" i mean the ones which classed as real but are made in a lab or studio etc as you can tell the difference in the shapping and the structure of the molecules[/quote]

Yamaha have a machine that subjects the wood to high pressure and then they introduce a chemical into the chamber (I think it's something as simple as acetic acid).
The pressure forces the chemical into the cell structure of the wood and that dries out the water/sap.

It's the same principle they use for pressure treated timbers used for window frames and roof joists.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='icastle' post='1215672' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:54 AM']I wonder if the same would work if Jeremy Clarkson to start driving around in a knackered old Vauxhall Chevette...

The market for spray on rust, custom dented doors and patchwork body panels could be massive...[/quote]

That's right folks get down to your local scrappy before it's too late.

I love how the car analogy knocks the roadworn argument on it's ass every time.

[icastle]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215687' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:06 PM']I love how the car analogy knocks the roadworn argument on it's ass every time. [/quote]

The thing I find wierd about this whole 'roadworn' image thing is that I can't think of another consumer retail chain where people buy knackered looking merchandise...

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215647' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:41 AM']That's interesting GW. Can go into more detail of your experience of this please.[/quote]

I sense a slight controversy, almost as you seek to challenge me. I won't get into it for the sake of "I know better, you know better" so what I'll do I'll give you some links that can give you a lot of different prospectives as to why trees which were born centuries ago, had different consistency where it has been noted by scientists using CT scans that 200 years ago or older trees grew slower and their growth rings were tighter & smaller hence producing better harmonic resonance.

[url="http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=8337.0"]http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/...hp?topic=8337.0[/url]

[url="http://www.sakura.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp/~obataya/research/06_heat/noguchi_WCSK2011.pdf"]http://www.sakura.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp/~obatay...hi_WCSK2011.pdf[/url]

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1215690' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:10 PM']Maybe it applies to Morgans though.

I dunno is there a Morgan forum where the debate a Fake worn look [/quote]
Sounds like another good experiment in the making.
Buy a Morgan, park it in the center of a busy supermarket carpark for a couple of weeks then see if it's market value has increased or decreased after that.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1215637' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:33 AM']Just ask a concert violin soloist how much he is prepared to pay for a 100 years old Stradivarius (we are talking £70-80 thousand average, by the way) and then you get an idea as to why to a professional orchestra violinist spending that money is essential to their job.[/quote]
This is down to the prestige of owning a Stradivari instrument rather than any tangible superiority. There have been many blind tests carried out where so-called experts have been completely unable to correctly identify a Stradivari when play alongside other violins, both old & new.

There's just as much horseshit & snobbery in the world of vintage classical instruments as there is with vintage electric guitars & basses