chris_b Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Wood is a natural product and will change over time. The production processes will change too so the sound of a musical instrument is likely to change as well. Leo Fender ran out of low density swamp ash and had to start using the higher density stuff, so maybe that is one reason for the popularity of the sound of some pre CBS Fenders. These days all mechanically wound pickups sound the same, but 50 years ago when "Dolores" went for her coffee break maybe she forgot how many windings she'd done. The result could be the reason why some vintage guitars sound better than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1215698' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:16 PM']I sense a slight controversy, almost as you seek to challenge me. I won't get into it for the sake of "I know better, you know better" so what I'll do I'll give you some links that can give you a lot of different prospectives as to why trees which were born centuries ago, had different consistency where it has been noted by scientists using CT scans that 200 years ago or older trees grew slower and their growth rings were tighter & smaller hence producing better harmonic resonance. [url="http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=8337.0"]http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/...hp?topic=8337.0[/url] [url="http://www.sakura.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp/~obataya/research/06_heat/noguchi_WCSK2011.pdf"]http://www.sakura.cc.tsukuba.ac.jp/~obatay...hi_WCSK2011.pdf[/url][/quote] No challenge mate. I am genuinely, 100% interested in hearing your first hand experience of the fact you offered into the debate... I'm not however interested in hearsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1215693' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:14 PM']The thing I find wierd about this whole 'roadworn' image thing is that I can't think of another consumer retail chain where people buy knackered looking merchandise... [/quote] People buy brand new jeans with holes & rips in them. They're f***ing stupid as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1215693' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:14 PM']The thing I find wierd about this whole 'roadworn' image thing is that I can't think of another consumer retail chain where people buy knackered looking merchandise... [/quote] Do people still buy ripped jeans? I know mine usually have wee marks where you've apparently had your hands in your pockets for ages but it's not as extreme as the old Sammy Fox look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1215719' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:27 PM']Last I looked at some Beetle sites they were taking angle grinders to fresh paint [/quote] Oh. That'll be Ringo getting bored again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='RhysP' post='1215722' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:30 PM']People buy brand new jeans with holes & rips in them. They're f***ing stupid as well. [/quote] Haha snap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='RhysP' post='1215722' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:30 PM']People buy brand new jeans with holes & rips in them. They're f***ing stupid as well. [/quote] Bleedin' heck! - do they still make those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215725' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:30 PM']Do people still buy ripped jeans? I know mine usually have wee marks[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1215726' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:32 PM']Oh. That'll be Ringo getting bored again... [/quote] "Thomas The Tank Engine left the stat.... oh fook it" Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1215693' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:14 PM']....The thing I find wierd about this whole 'roadworn' image thing is that I can't think of another consumer retail chain where people buy knackered looking merchandise....[/quote] I know a furniture maker and he is regularly asked to "distress" the tables and chairs etc to make them look older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1215731' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:36 PM'][/quote] Just don't ask to see round the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janmaat Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 To the OP: some basses get better over time - they get modded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' post='1215733' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:36 PM']I know a furniture maker and he is regularly asked to "distress" the tables and chairs etc to make them look older.[/quote] Yep, I hadn't thought of that one but isn't that more of a treatment to keep decor uniform and 'in keeping'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215735' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:37 PM']Just don't ask to see round the back. [/quote] I think I can probably resist the urge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215725' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:30 PM']I know mine usually have wee marks.......[/quote] By "Wee" I'm hoping you mean "Small". If not there are special pads you can buy in any branch of Boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerley Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 A few examples of "roadworn" merchandise outside of guitars; - Stonewashed jeans (pretty much what everyone wears and stonewashed to make look used - they don't have to go as far as ripping holes in them) - Leather jackets - Shabby chic furniture (very similar to the guitars with wood and wear simulated in the areas it would occur naturally) A comparison to cars however is a poor one as most people restore their cars to be as new and are worth more in that state. But in the same way as cars the trick is to buy when they are cheap and out of favour/not quite old enough and then watch the price rise as the years go by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='RhysP' post='1215722' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:30 PM']People buy brand new jeans with holes & rips in them. They're f***ing stupid as well. [/quote] Nah the f***ing stupid people are the people that feel the need to ridicule others based on opinions and tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SignsOfDelirium_bassist Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Surely it could be that old instruments were built in a different time with a different work ethic? I sincerely doubt that the workers in the mexican factories care how good the instruments turn out! They aren't all payed to make sure that the part they're in charge of is immaculate. Whereas back in the day when fender started, people probably took a lot more care over each product, wanting it to be better than the last! Combine that with the fact that pretty much every dud instrument would've been destroyed somehow by now, so we've only got the good ones left. So people play these old instruments that look all worn down and slightly beat up (only due to age and use), and associate that 'roadworn' look with a good sound. Which in turn could quite easily make them think that the modern Roadworn basses sound better than they do, simply because they expect them too. At least, that's my theory on why people buy these things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) The thing with everything including basses is over time the companys behind them are constantly looking for cheaper ways of making things so its not a case of improving with age its more the fact in some cases the parts are already better than new versions. Metal types and the quality chosen for hardware etc will be better on older basses which is why they have lasted a long time yet a new version of the same bass will use cheaper metal but made with better tooling etc and maybe chromed giving an impression of better quality which it isnt and the ultimate then being custom stuff where they use the best materials with the modern tooling to make for the best of both worlds. Schaller & Hipshot etc etc As for woods its the same story really as its not that the wood has dried out over time its the fact that the woods used in many cases was already very good cuts and seasoned more than the green freshly cut stuff they use now (see roasted necks as already pointed out, go to B&Q its called Kiln dried and its chuff) some woods for fretboards is in short supply hence the extra cost of DN boards etc, Ivory and Mother of pearl etc etc are all custom order or not available anymore and so on. Vintage frets are also really nice but again fatter frets equals more metal which equals more cost to the makers so they are gone too. There is something about original models which feel better IMO and IME which sums up the vinatge thing for me its not so much about vintage more original era be that 50's 60's or even early 2000's, Anything with a coporate logo gets worse not better over time from what I have seen, My own three Rays are each slightly worse in some ways as the decades have passed Edited April 30, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Add to the above cheap pots and poor quality copper and brass parts within them, Crap jack sockets, Thin cheap wire rather than the good old fat cotton coated etc I could go on but I wont, I promise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1215637' date='Apr 30 2011, 11:33 AM']Just ask a concert violin soloist how much he is prepared to pay for a 100 years old Stradivarius (we are talking £70-80 thousand average, by the way) and then you get an idea as to why to a professional orchestra violinist spending that money is essential to their job.[/quote] To be pedantic , Stradivarius was making violins (& guitars & cellos) in the late 17th > early 18th Century, so they're now around 300+ years old, and they go for £Millions. Acoustic instruments definitely need to be "played in" - the vibrations help the wood become more resonant. I read somewhere that a violin "peaks" at around 100 years old, and after around 200 years starts to gradually deteriorate as the wood becomes more brittle and oxidised. So all those Stradivarii will soon be no better than modern Chinese cheapos. Me, I like basses, motorbikes and cars made from the late '50's to early '80's, mainly as they're low tech, over-engineered, and quirky - sometimes in a good way, sometimes bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttitudeCastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='RhysP' post='1215706' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:20 PM']This is down to the prestige of owning a Stradivari instrument rather than any tangible superiority. There have been many blind tests carried out where so-called experts have been completely unable to correctly identify a Stradivari when play alongside other violins, both old & new. There's just as much horseshit & snobbery in the world of vintage classical instruments as there is with vintage electric guitars & basses[/quote] Well the stradivari are considered THE best, down to the mans skills and the woods he used. PRS used the same woods from the trees around his work shop to use the very same woods that stradivarius used! There are only what 30-40 in the world? I've had the privilidge of playing one and it felt better than the one i used to play when i actually learnt the violin, but it didn't radiate being worth £100K+ but then again i've played MIA P-basses and custom shop Ps worth £2K and they have felt the same way more than a Squire but i didn't feel the pennies. With "classical" instruments it more down to playing, and no so much tone, as alot of tone comes direct the player but tone is an element. They are meant to be the very pinicle of of violins, they are meant to be the best sounding and best playing (Disclaimer: I am no violinist! I can just play to a VERY basic standard! I am a bassist and Bass trombonist! Also this is no dig at Squire or fender or the great Stradivarius! I love P-basses! Also its not like we're talking about Paginini! haha ) Its just things aren't done the same way and i think its a taste thing, which in turn can be snobbery. Like those who will play a certain amp companies stuff and no one elses for example not mentioning any large american amp companies *cough ampegers cough* (Joking!) I play and prefer Laney amps for example, and many would scoff at that so its pretty similar isn't it? I prefer the newer modern 'fresher' instruments but if it sounds good and feels good i'll play it! Its music, an art. Not science! Please don't form a mob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='RhysP' post='1215747' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:46 PM']By "Wee" I'm hoping you mean "Small". If not there are special pads you can buy in any branch of Boots. [/quote]I'm not quite there yet. Although I do have to run the pipes through after a sex wee. [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1215908' date='Apr 30 2011, 04:11 PM']Nah the f***ing stupid people are the people that feel the need to ridicule others based on opinions and tastes. [/quote]Ooooh I think someone still has some ripped jeans. [quote name='SignsOfDelirium_bassist' post='1215923' date='Apr 30 2011, 04:27 PM']Surely it could be that old instruments were built in a different time with a different work ethic?....[/quote]If that's the case why are '70s Fenders becoming "collectabe" now too? [quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1215976' date='Apr 30 2011, 05:30 PM']Well the stradivari are considered THE best, down to the mans skills and the woods he used.....[/quote]Aye, they must be pretty good as the finish didn't magically fall off after 30 years... although I've never seen any with fag burns on the headstock either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Shaggy' post='1215967' date='Apr 30 2011, 05:19 PM']I read somewhere that a violin "peaks" at around 100 years old[/quote] I have a 120 year old Scottish fiddle. Unfortunately my 'peak' as a fiddle player is likely to take 100 years as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1215991' date='Apr 30 2011, 05:50 PM']I'm not quite there yet. Although I do have to run the pipes through after a sex wee. [/quote] You crack me up Rich! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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