PA Systems

[flyfisher]

How do people manage balancing the sound from on-stage amps and the PA system?

I'm thinking that our stage monitors are not up to the job, with the result that our guitarists (well, one of them mainly) can't hear himself well enough (he says), so he'll crank up his amp volume. This then makes it difficult for the sound person trying to get a good mic through the PA, especially in a small-ish venue when the PA is not cranked right up itself.

Obviously, the sound guy can reduce the guitar level through the PA to offset the additional on-stage amp volume, but if it has to be backed off completely then the sound guy has no more control over the guitar volume.

When putting everything through the PA system, is it normal practice to keep the on-stage amps quite low and use the monitors to provide the correct sound back to the band?

If our monitors are not really up to the job (we only have two and our config means they can't really be used separately, i.e. we have two speakers but only one monitor amp), it it feasible to turn the on-stage amps to point to the players and use them as monitors? i.e. the on-stage amps "play" to the band and the PA "plays" to the audience.

I suspect we need to bite the bullet and improve our monitoring arrangement, but I'd appreaciate any suggestions of how we could better get the most out of what we already have.

[Adrenochrome]

Yes, if you're gonna achieve a good sound for the audience then the on-stage guitar/bass amps ARE for onstage monitoring. Yes, backline levels should be moderate but this is largely dictated by the volume of your drummer. Sensible onstage sound levels really help with vocals and getting the best from your monitors.

[Graham56]

Can you get the guitarist to raise his amp off the floor? Perhaps by putting it on a chair, stool, box or bottlecrate. If it's right in his ear it's easier to persuade him to turn it down.

Failing that, can he tilt it back a little so his ears get the sound rather than his ankles?

Our guitarist took quite some time to learn to control his volume. It was really only when he bought a radio unit and went walkabout in the audience that he could hear how the whole band sounded out front.

Cheers

Graham

Edited May 7, 2011 by Graham56

[icastle]

We put everything (except drums) through the desk and use AUX1 to set up the monitor mix.
Although we only have one monitor amp, we each have a monitor with a volume control so we can adjust it according to what we want/need.

Once we've got an on stage mix using backline and monitors that we're happy with only then do we then set up front of house.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1223327' date='May 7 2011, 03:53 PM']I'm thinking that our stage monitors are not up to the job, with the result that our guitarists (well, one of them mainly) can't hear himself well enough (he says), so he'll crank up his amp volume.[/quote]
Oh, yes.....Like we haven't heard this before, from practically every guitarist that ever drew breath.


[quote]When putting everything through the PA system, is it normal practice to keep the on-stage amps quite low and use the monitors to provide the correct sound back to the band?[/quote]
Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

[quote]If our monitors are not really up to the job (we only have two and our config means they can't really be used separately, i.e. we have two speakers but only one monitor amp), it it feasible to turn the on-stage amps to point to the players and use them as monitors? i.e. the on-stage amps "play" to the band and the PA "plays" to the audience.
I suspect we need to bite the bullet and improve our monitoring arrangement, but I'd appreaciate any suggestions of how we could better get the most out of what we already have.[/quote]
This could be part of your (conceived) problem. In an ideal world, the more seperate monitor mixes, the better. If your guitarist is having to 'share' his mix with someone else, it gives him just the excuse he needs to turn himself up.

[Lozz196]

I`d suspect that the guitarist in question has a nice rig (4x12?), and is simply standing very close to it. Guitar amps project sound very well, but if standing very close, they don`t sound loud enough, hence this problem that happens in bands all over the world.

Get the guy to move right out front at a soundcheck/rehearsal, and let him hear this for himself. It sounds daft, that an amp gets louder as you move away from it, so most people don`t believe it until its proved to them - and you can`t blame them really, its very contradictory.

It`s especially a problem with 4x12s - our old guitarist always moaned about not being able to hear himself when using his 4x12, but never had any problems with his 2x12.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1223327' date='May 7 2011, 03:53 PM']How do people manage balancing the sound from on-stage amps and the PA system?[/quote]

Make sure everyone has a decent compatable sound EQ'd to the band..and then play at levels where you can hear everyone.
That way you make it simple and less likely you have to pull off miracles with a mix. And you probably only have a mon mix anyway.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1223515' date='May 7 2011, 06:25 PM']I`d suspect that the guitarist in question has a nice rig (4x12?), and is simply standing very close to it. Guitar amps project sound very well, but if standing very close, they don`t sound loud enough, hence this problem that happens in bands all over the world.

Get the guy to move right out front at a soundcheck/rehearsal, and let him hear this for himself. It sounds daft, that an amp gets louder as you move away from it, so most people don`t believe it until its proved to them - and you can`t blame them really, its very contradictory.

It`s especially a problem with 4x12s - our old guitarist always moaned about not being able to hear himself when using his 4x12, but never had any problems with his 2x12.[/quote]

This is due to the directionality of 12"s not the distance from them. As you get further away you get into the "beam" of sound so it sounds louder. If you get the amp up to close to his ears (as other have suggested) there is no way in the world it will get louder as you get further away.

With a 2x12" I would bet he put it on a stand, or as you walk away from the stage you never get into the "beam".

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1223587' date='May 7 2011, 07:42 PM']Make sure everyone has a decent compatable sound EQ'd to the band..and then play at levels where you can hear everyone.
That way you make it simple and less likely you have to pull off miracles with a mix. And you probably only have a mon mix anyway.[/quote]

This is an often overlooked point. Quite a few guitarists think that they have to cover the same bass frequencies when playing in a band as the they do when playing at home. You're the bassist so they need to roll off the bass frequencies. This means you don't have to be so loud to be heard and they don't have to try to be louder than you and compete in the loudness wars.

What other instruments do you have in the band? Maybe look at arrangements. If you have two guitarists doubling the same parts this can lead to problems.

What are you putting through the monitors?

Edited May 7, 2011 by TimR

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' post='1223395' date='May 7 2011, 04:44 PM']We put everything (except drums) through the desk and use AUX1 to set up the monitor mix.
Although we only have one monitor amp, we each have a monitor with a volume control so we can adjust it according to what we want/need.

Once we've got an on stage mix using backline and monitors that we're happy with only then do we then set up front of house.[/quote]

That's pretty much what we do, except we only have two monitors and they don't have individual volume controls so they sit in front of the two singers, hence the lack of foldback to the guitarists.

Hmm. From all the comments it seems we're trying to do the correct thing but we're probably being a bit hampered by our lack of monitors.

Actually, our on-stage amps are not particularly over the top - possibly even underpowered. We have three guitarists, (one acoustic) though they don't all play on every song. One has a 60W peavey (1x12 I think), one a small marshall combo probably much the same as the peavey, and the acoustic has a 60W Roland cube. I use an Ashdown 300W Mag EvoII head plus 1x15 and 2x10 cabs, so I don't struggle to be heard in comparison.

We generally try to get the guitar amps off the floor but, coincidentally, we didn't do that at last night's gig where we had the on-stage balance problems than prompted this thread. I like the idea of tilting the guitar amps upwards and effectively using them as personal monitors - definitely worth a try methinks.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' post='1223601' date='May 7 2011, 07:56 PM']What other instruments do you have in the band? Maybe look at arrangements. If you have two guitarists doubling the same parts this can lead to problems.

What are you putting through the monitors?[/quote]

I'd say we're OK on arrangements. Although we have three guitarists, they rarely all play on a song and we only have one (well-behaved!) lead guitarist, so there's no conflict there. It's mainly the acoustic guitarist, who also plays harmonica, who seems to always want to be too loud.

We put 3 vocal mics and three guitarists through the monitors.

We don't put my bass through our PA because I have enough grunt already for most of the places we play and having no keyboards there is really notthing else to compete with the bass range. We don't seem to have any particular issues with the bass anyway.

The suggestion of getting our errant guitarist out into the audience area during soundchecking sounds like a good idea. At last night's gig we had complimentary comments about our sound from a lot of the audience we spoke to afterwards, including someone who has seen us play many times and is known to be particularly critical about such things. So, at least we're probably getting the FOH sound reasonably OK, it's just the on-stage sound that the band is hearing that we're struggling with.

All part of the game I guess.

Thanks for all the comments.

[JTUK]

Unless you have monitor mixes..which most basic P.A can't really do unless you have more than one aux send/dedicated monitor mixer, you are better off with vocals only in the monitors. That way the vocaslists get the most from it..and this is the most important anyway..and the individual instrument uses its backline for its monitoring

Your backline sounds as though it will do the job ..you can put bleeds through the P.A if you want, but you'll need to regulate this with an egnr out front.

I don't think there is much to be gained putting too much stuff through a P.A that might not be upto the job. You are just waiting for another set of kit to be strained.

If you put instrumenst through the mix, post or pre.. ?? what do you do if the band turns up onstage... who controls this FOH..?

It gets complicated for not too much gain..it may even spoil everything.

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1223689' date='May 7 2011, 09:42 PM']Unless you have monitor mixes..which most basic P.A can't really do unless you have more than one aux send/dedicated monitor mixer, you are better off with vocals only in the monitors.
...[/quote]

That is what I was going to suggest. What are you using for monitors speaker size and power?

There are ways of setting up monitors to optimise stage coverage. Again monitors are directional and need to be aimed at the singers ears. Even wedge shaped monitors are no good if they are right at the singers feet. Packing under the monitors to tilt them up really helps. You may then find that one monitor will cover the whole of one half of the stage area.

[flyfisher]

I certainly agree with the point about complication, but the idea was to help us achieve a better overall sound balance than just putting the vocals through the PA. We used to just have a small on-stage mixer for the vocals-only PA, but while this could give pretty good results during the sound check, we were always at the mercy of people changing their amp/guitar settings during the set and screwing up the sound - at which point it's all a bit too late.

Last night was the first time we were responsible for the entire PA system so we took along all our gear including a half-decent mixer located at the rear of the not-very-large venue.

Basically, we have a 220W Yamaha Emx212 'powered mixer system with two speakers (not independent outputs). We used to use this as a vocals-only PA system.

Then we added a pair of Mackie SRM250s and a SWA1501 subwoofer with a Soundcraft Spirit M12 mixer and a 30m snake.

So the aforementioned signals go to the Soundcraft mixer and the main outputs drive the Mackie PA. The AUX1 and AUX2 pre-fade outputs go to the Yamaha powered mixer which drives the two passive speakers as monitors.

Judging from the above comments I'm now thinking that we have enough mixer controls but not enough independent monitors on stage. or perhaps the venue was too small to warrant such a set up and it was always going to be difficult to "remove" the on-stage amps from the overall sound to the audience.

We've played larger venues with everything through the house PA system and it was fine . . . but they also had their own sound guy, who was no doubt rather more experienced than we are!

[TimR]

The comment is only aimed at Vocals in the MONITORS. The front of house PA is fine for what you are doing.

If you only have 12" Yamaha monitors you [b]may [/b] struggle adding the guitars into the monitor mix. Get the monitor speakers aiming in the right direction. Use the guitar amps as stage monitoring for the guitarists. Everyone can turn down and it'll be more coherent.

Also try cutting a bit of the bass frequencies from the monitors. The singers may not like the sound of their voices soloed but they'll sound fine and cut through better when the whole band is playing.

Edited May 7, 2011 by TimR

[flyfisher]

That all makes sense - we may have been getting a bit ambitious for the monitors we're using.

Any comments about placing the guitar amps (they're fairly small after all) at the front of the stage facing towards the band (and suitably tilted), like standard floor monitors, rather than at the back facing the audience?

[TimR]

I would avoid it because you will get problems from the sound bouncing off the back wall. Which is probably part of the problem with the monitors as well.

Unfortunately unless you're using IEMs with dedicated channels for everyone, monitoring is always a compromise.

Edited May 7, 2011 by TimR

[flyfisher]

Yes, I wondered about reflection problems . . . possibly the reason I've never seen it done before.

I think IEMs are probably a bit too advanced for our humble status, though I can see they would give the ultimate control . . . assuming there was a really experienced tech on the mixing desk.

I reckon we'll just have to try tilting the on-stage amps, being a bit more critical with the existing monitor placement and aralditing our errant guitarist's volume control.

Good discussion though, very helpful - thanks to all.

[fryer]

Can I jump in here about monitors too ? Our front of house is fine, but out three vocalists - singer, guitarist and drummer - can't hear what they are singing sometimes. We just have 2 Roland 30 w cube monitors mounted on stands facing backwards.

Do we need louder monitors or floor wedges ?

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='fryer' post='1223789' date='May 7 2011, 11:58 PM']Can I jump in here about monitors too ? Our front of house is fine, but out three vocalists - singer, guitarist and drummer - can't hear what they are singing sometimes. We just have 2 Roland 30 w cube monitors mounted on stands facing backwards.

Do we need louder monitors or floor wedges ?[/quote]
Oh God, yes! The set-up I use for our little Hire Rig has three active monitors, 2x400watt wedges for the vocalists/guitarists at the front, and a 300watt wedge for the Drummer. They're capable of being very loud, but it's nice to have the luxury of being able to turn them down whenever the circumstances call for it. It's a nice feeling to be a bit 'over-gunned' and safe in the knowledge that the monitors will do a good job in most situations, instead of worrying if they'll be loud [i]enough.[/i]

(Edit to add that most of our Hire jobs are Rock Bands, who tend to be a bit louder than the norm. I wouldn't expect to have to use all the available volume at an Acoustic Night)

Edited May 7, 2011 by BigAlonBass

[Les]

It's your guitarist. He's lying.

[JTUK]

[quote name='fryer' post='1223789' date='May 7 2011, 11:58 PM']Can I jump in here about monitors too ? Our front of house is fine, but out three vocalists - singer, guitarist and drummer - can't hear what they are singing sometimes. We just have 2 Roland 30 w cube monitors mounted on stands facing backwards.

Do we need louder monitors or floor wedges ?[/quote]

Don't know those monitors but for most bands there is never enough monitoring and these would only handle vocals at best.
I would think you are serverly underpowered in this regard.

The mounted monitors can be quite directional and useful ...but 2 into 3 will not go..and that is apart from the power aspect.
I'd suggest the drummer needs a wedge at least and then you can point the other two at the vox and gtr and see how you get on.
The bass player and others will have to get vox from FOH..but if they don't sing that is less important.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='TimR' post='1223596' date='May 7 2011, 07:52 PM']This is due to the directionality of 12"s not the distance from them. As you get further away you get into the "beam" of sound so it sounds louder. If you get the amp up to close to his ears (as other have suggested) there is no way in the world it will get louder as you get further away.

With a 2x12" I would bet he put it on a stand, or as you walk away from the stage you never get into the "beam".[/quote]


That`s what I meant, but didn`t put in in technical terms, as to be honest, don`t know them.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1224203' date='May 8 2011, 03:46 PM']That`s what I meant, but didn`t put in in technical terms, as to be honest, don`t know them.[/quote]



It's easier to explain if you think of it as the speakers being torches. The high frequencies have narrow beams and the low frequencies wide ones. If you stand in the strong light you get lit up more than if you stand in the shadows by the edges.

If you have four torches you have areas of light and dark where the beams overlap. As we walk across the stage we walk through these areas of light and dark so the two speakers next to each other give us problems. The speakers on top each other only give us problems if we are going up and down.

Hopefully that's a fairly non technical explanation of what's going on and makes the "sounds louder" as you move away argument less counter intuitive and easier to explain to your guitarist.

Although unfortunately, in my experience, singers and guitarists just want you to make it work, they're not interested in how it works, which makes it a lot harder.

Edited May 8, 2011 by TimR

[Les]

Some good stuff on monitoring in this thread, must admit I like to get it as quiet on stage as we can, within reason and limited by the drummer who isn't as easy to turn down, don't get me wrong it's still punchy on stage but we're not having a volume fight and we seem to be able to monitor the vocals quite well.

I went into a local gig we do quite often recently and there was a band on, I said to one of the locals, "bugger me Pete, these boys are loud"

he looked at me and said "you're as loud as this lot!" I had no idea, it doesn't sound it from were I am.