eBay - Overwater warning

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1230016' date='May 13 2011, 03:02 PM']Seems a bit over the top mate, I mean I might die if I eat a dodgy bit of chicken, hasn't stopped me eating chicken yet. And the chance of a nice bass quite cheap is worth a punt. Never say never[/quote]

It depends what you call cheap. I bet you're careful what Chicken you eat though ?

Anything 'cheap', ie £200 or so I wouldn't bother with anyway, chances are the seller just wants rid of it......why ?

Anything more than that I wouldn't risk because I couldn't afford to get stung.

Just because you buy from Ebay, or pay with Paypal, that doesn't mean that you are guaranteed your money back, and it can take ages to get it back.

This year alone I've travelled to Edinburgh, London twice and Oxford to collect items that I've bought or traded. I've been to Scotland previously to buy a bass. I make a day out of it.

Quote..

Disagree strongly with that. Being geographically challenged as I am coupled with the esoteric tastes I have, I find myself with little choice other than to buy from afar. I've got 5 keepers. The few I've had problems with, I've returned without major hassles (just some minor squirming on a couple of occasions).

Public transport can be really cheap nowadays. I just did a search on Megabus, a return from London to Edinburgh for a random day next week is £28. That's going one day, and coming back the next. If you're flexible it's cheaper, and a lot cheaper than being ripped off by some weaselly conman on Ebay. Another example Aberdeen to London is £40 return, a long trip, but again, it's better than being ripped off.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Soliloquy

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1230068' date='May 13 2011, 03:56 PM']Maybe more of a case of why would you say you haven't been to see the neighbour.

Let me guess. Because then he can say he has no Bass and keep the money . Where as he actually has both.

No matter how you look at it he's being an awkward c*** .[/quote]
I have to confess that he is being pedantic about the fact that I said the bass was with his '[u]next-door[/u] neighbour at #19' (this is as was described to me by the UPS), his responses have switched from overemphasising that it isn't his signature (durgh we've accepted that) to the fact he doesn't have a next door neighbour @ #19... no because he lives in a 'kin flat and #19 is directly below him!

However, I'll admit that I have a sneaking suspicion that though he is still protesting that he hasn't got the bass and he's been to #19 twice, I (like you) believe that he's got the bass sitting at home and he's simply chancing the fact that there is a slim chance that ebay might favour him and not refund... win/win for him he reckons, whereas even if they refund he's lost nothing as he has the bass back any way.

What he may not have considered is that in the event that he still claims not to have gotten his bass, UPS will be initiating a claim of theft by the neighbour and when the police go knocking on #19's door he's going to fess up pretty quickly that our seller has the bass back and then UPS will be prosecuting him for falsely claiming not to be in receipt of the bass! I get a refund from UPS and he gets a nice black mark against his name (in England it may be a CCJ which affects your credit rating etc but in Scotland it may be different) with a criminal prosecution.

I've got to wait till Sunday evening when the 10 days are up and then I can upscale my claim but the good thing is that ebay have indicated that as I've followed guidelines, there shouldn't be a problem and as he is being a c*ck about the whole thing there is the chance that ebay will suspend his account... win/win for me!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='1230085' date='May 13 2011, 04:06 PM']It depends what you call cheap. I bet you're careful what Chicken you eat though ?

Anything 'cheap', ie £200 or so I wouldn't bother with anyway, chances are the seller just wants rid of it......why ?

Anything more than that I wouldn't risk because I couldn't afford to get stung.

Just because you buy from Ebay, or pay with Paypal, that doesn't mean that you are guaranteed your money back, and it can take ages to get it back.

This year alone I've travelled to Edinburgh, London twice and Oxford to collect items that I've bought or traded. I've been to Scotland previously to buy a bass. I make a day out of it.[/quote]

Sadly I am still not that picky about chicken, and am often quite ill as a result.

Only buy cheap stuff anyway as I can't stop myself ripping them to bits and rebuilding them. As a result I am mostly buying parts, which are fine from ebay generally.

I have neither the time nor the funds to devote to taking a day out to try something I might not even want afterwards sadly, so more power to you sir for being able to do this.

Luckily I do not suffer from GAS and habitually play the same old POS P-copy i've had since 1989, despite the occassional foray into other more expensive items that I don't get on with so much.

Still, vive la difference and so on.

[Beedster]

John, really sorry to hear about all this, and I'm sure you'll get it sorted, although let's hope it doesn't take the courier pursuing a prosecution against the recipient of the bass to force events.

I'm not saying this as a "should have done it this way" manner, but more to help people who might have to deal with iffy ebayers in the future, but in the special instructions section that most couriers have, simply state "Deliver to named recipient at stated address only. Do not leave at any other address". At least this way, although it might take longer to get back to the seller, it gets there without any of the problems (how many times does the issue of basses left with neighbours by couriers come up FCS!).

What your seller is pulling is one of the oldest scams on ebay, and one that I resolved a couple of years back by emailing the seller to whom I'd returned an amp, and in very formal language, along the lines "I will be "instructing my representative in ........ to visit the address to which the courier has delivered the item. He has instructions to speak to the signatory and if he has no satisfaction, or is unable to make contact with said person, he is to proceed with legal action for theft." Funnily enough, the seller emailed back the same day saying that the neighbour had received the item but that he had completely forgotten about it being a bit old

Good luck mate

C

[neepheid]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='1230085' date='May 13 2011, 04:06 PM']Public transport can be really cheap nowadays. I just did a search on Megabus, a return from London to Edinburgh for a random day next week is £28. That's going one day, and coming back the next. If you're flexible it's cheaper, and a lot cheaper than being ripped off by some weaselly conman on Ebay. Another example Aberdeen to London is £40 return, a long trip, but again, it's better than being ripped off.[/quote]

Time is money. It is not cheaper for me to take a day off work (because that's when the cheap tickets will be - week days) to then sit on a bus for anything up to 10 hours each way, for what could amount to an unfavourable tyre kick and a no thank you. Or maybe someone who doesn't even show up at the rendezvous point (I've read about that happening to someone on here).

I'll do my research and hope for the best. I can fix a lot of things for myself these days, and if I can't (or can't find someone who can) then I'll take the hit of moving it on with issues, or part it out. Even that's still cheaper than watching grain after grain of sand trickle through the hourglass of life on a bus/train and end up doing it all again on the way back home with nothing to show for it.

How was your day off? Rubbish - I went to London to get a bass and all I got was a bad back and pressure sores!

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='neepheid' post='1230144' date='May 13 2011, 04:54 PM']Time is money. It is not cheaper for me to take a day off work (because that's when the cheap tickets will be - week days) to then sit on a bus for anything up to 10 hours each way, for what could amount to an unfavourable tyre kick and a no thank you. Or maybe someone who doesn't even show up at the rendezvous point (I've read about that happening to someone on here).

I'll do my research and hope for the best. I can fix a lot of things for myself these days, and if I can't (or can't find someone who can) then I'll take the hit of moving it on with issues, or part it out. Even that's still cheaper than watching grain after grain of sand trickle through the hourglass of life on a bus/train and end up doing it all again on the way back home with nothing to show for it.

How was your day off? Rubbish - I went to London to get a bass and all I got was a bad back and pressure sores! [/quote]

Each to his own I guess, but I'd rather suffer a bad back and pressure sores than a large dent in my bank balance.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread somewhat. It's just my personal preference to collect things. I also don't trust couriers either, but that's another story.

I sincerely hope that the guy here gets his money back on this, and again....sorry for sidetracking.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1230137' date='May 13 2011, 04:51 PM']John, really sorry to hear about all this, and I'm sure you'll get it sorted, although let's hope it doesn't take the courier pursuing a prosecution against the recipient of the bass to force events.

I'm not saying this as a "should have done it this way" manner, but more to help people who might have to deal with iffy ebayers in the future, but in the special instructions section that most couriers have, simply state "Deliver to named recipient at stated address only. Do not leave at any other address". At least this way, although it might take longer to get back to the seller, it gets there without any of the problems (how many times does the issue of basses left with neighbours by couriers come up FCS!).

What your seller is pulling is one of the oldest scams on ebay, and one that I resolved a couple of years back by emailing the seller to whom I'd returned an amp, and in very formal language, along the lines "I will be "instructing my representative in ........ to visit the address to which the courier has delivered the item. He has instructions to speak to the signatory and if he has no satisfaction, or is unable to make contact with said person, he is to proceed with legal action for theft." Funnily enough, the seller emailed back the same day saying that the neighbour had received the item but that he had completely forgotten about it being a bit old

Good luck mate

C[/quote]
Cheers Chris.

As it happens your suggestion above may well be going one step further! I'm getting together with an old mate tomorrow who's a solicitor with his family having a chain of solicitor firms. We've just been chatting on the phone making plans for tomorrow and I couldn't help but mention this situation; as his family have branches throughout the NE of England and are now practicing in Scotland, he's going to get one of the partners in a Scottish branch (a personal friend of his) to act on my behalf should things go pear shaped with ebay... and it'll not cost me a bean (maybe a bottle of Scotch but it transpires I may get back more than my original amount due to the claim that will be pursued), I feel very humbled by the offer and I'm not daft enough to look a gift horse in the mouth. Added to which there have been some very kind words and actions going back and forth via ebay. In a way if the guy doesn't accept that he's received the bass back and refunds me by Sunday, he's in for a whole heap of sh1t whichever way you look at it and I'm not really going to be losing any sleep over him.

I'm feeling confident now but not smug and I fully realise that there'll be loads of folks that get fleeced like this and don't have the support or forethought to counter such actions, it has opened my eyes to how easily the ebay system could potentially be abused.

[warwickhunt]

Now starting to think that the poor s*d in all of this is going to be the guy at #19!

As UPS have the guy at #19's signature and a statement from the UPS driver that the package is with the guy at #19, it transpires that subsequent claims by either my agents or those acting for ebay or UPS may well be made against [u]him[/u]. Our friend the seller probably hasn't thought through the fact that someone somewhere will be demanding compensation for a £485 package and all fingers point to the poor bugger at #19. I REALLY hope that the seller doesn't give a fig about what his neighbours think, as the bloke who's about to get the flack for our friend Ron's actions is going to be pretty chuffin miffed. I'd personally be making sure that if I were getting the flack for this I'd be kicking Ron's door in and making sure that the neighbourhood knew what a cnut's trick he'd pulled!

Of course if he's mates with chummy at #19 then they may well try and counter any claim but expecting a loss of £485 to disappear is pretty short-sighted.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1230297' date='May 13 2011, 07:06 PM']I dunno over your way but around here if you dropped someone in the flat below you in the sh*t the chances would be you wouldn't be walking properly for a while if ever again.

I sure hope 19 is the understanding kind and not some samurai wielding nut job !!![/quote]
They look a nice block of flats so chances are the neighbour will just grass him up... pronto!

[Ou7shined]

Ok peeps. The seller has been in touch with me via our local (steady on MB1 ) music forum to help him post a further statement on his behalf as he is having some undisclosed problems doing so himself....

[color="#8B0000"][i]Hi,I'm Ronz,the guy who sold the Overwater bass. Let me point out a few things.
1.I am NOT a scammer and laugh at the people on this board who are quite willing to say publically that I am! You don't know me so you're just making guesses after hearing 1 side of the story.
2. I sold the bass in good faith and it did not have the extent of cracks that are pictured. There may have been laquer cracks but nothing more than that. Those are the first pictures I have seen of them at that extent.
3. Bass was sent insured up to £500,I'm quite happy to scan and post the reciept with extra insurance.
4. At NO POINT did I say to the seller,"so what,you got it cheap". I would love for him to post where I said that.
5.If I had seen the cracks I would have told the buyer to hold the bass there as that is what is needed when a claim is to be made,he showed me nothing,I only saw it on this forum after being tipped off by friends who frequent here.
6. He seems to think by pointing out that his wife works for the police force that this will somehow scare me into refunding him before I have my bass back. An honest seller is in no way intimidated by this and was fairly pointless to mention it I thought.
7. The courier's website has indeed shown it to be delivered,but with no address ,just Aberdeen and certainly not my name or signature.
8. Which one of you on this board would refund somebody when you don't have the bass back? Be honest?
9. I have my own signature series with Overwater so i'm hardly going to be a scammer!
10. I have tried number 19 twice and no answer. I've always maintained that when I get the bass back I'll issue a refund,ask the buyer to deny that![/i][/color]

I'm just passing this on (as received). Please don't shoot the messenger.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1230493' date='May 13 2011, 10:03 PM']If it was sent parcel force as the ad states then it wasn't insured.

Musical instruments are not insured over something like £150 even with extra insurance.

when Warwick mentioned the cracks why didn't he ask for pictures. I know I would have wanted to see the damage done to the bass before agreeing a refund.

[b]EDIT I don't see any signature basses on overwaters site[/b][/quote]
ebay turned up this though [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WDsKA85zCA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WDsKA85zCA[/url]

[tm486]

Ronz, i assume you can read this as you managed to request that someone posted here on your behalf. This is also my first post on this subject, but I have been following, and feel the need to reply to the post on your behalf.

1.Whilst I see your point about us all judging you from one side of the story, the majority of people on this forum are great, genuine, trustworthy people who I would have no hesistations on dealing with, in fact a quick check in the feedback section will show you that warwickhunt has nothing but good comments. For this reason we are likely to trust him on what he has said.

2.[color="#FF0000"]“I sold the bass in good faith and it did not have the extent of cracks that are pictured. There may have been laquer cracks but nothing more than that. Those are the first pictures I have seen of them at that extent.”[/color]
In the listing, you made absolutely no reference to these cracks, yet here you are admitting they were there when you sent it. At the very least that is not describing the item accurately, so we are instantly inclined to believe warwickhunt as he has not been proven to lie outright as of yet.

3.Nobody has said that you didn't send the item insured for the full amount, it was merely mentioned that if you sent it via the courier stated in your listing, then they don't insure anything over around £200. This may have been a mistake, but they did say 'if'.
4.
5.
6.If you are honest, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. The intimidation, if there was any, was to try and get you to refund him if you are in possession of the bass, as this would be a criminal offence. There is suspicion that you actually have the bass, and are just trying to get to keep your money and the bass. That is all said intimidation was trying to achieve.

7.This has been covered. UPS delivered to number 19. warwickhunt ensures us that you have been informed of this.

8.Obviously nobody would refund someone for a bass that hasn't been returned (correct me if I am wrong).

9.Having a signature series with the manufacturer proves literally nothing. A common trait among
scammers is greed. So tell me exactly how having two overwaters helps to dispel any thoughts that you would be a scammer? Not all scammers have to be serial scammers, they are opportunists.

10.The buyer has not once claimed otherwise. He has stated that you have offered a full refund upon receiving the bass, and I truly hope that being unable to contact the person living at number 19 is the only problem.


I apologise if I have offended anyone here, or if I have made any mistakes in what I have written. The point I am most intrigued about is number 2. I would like to know how you claim to be trustworthy when there was no mention of the cracks shown in the ebay listing, yet they are clearly there.

Tom

Edited May 13, 2011 by tm486

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1230439' date='May 13 2011, 09:15 PM']Ok peeps. The seller has been in touch with me via our local (steady on MB1 ) music forum to help him post a further statement on his behalf as he is having some undisclosed problems doing so himself....

[color="#8B0000"][i]Hi,I'm Ronz,the guy who sold the Overwater bass. Let me point out a few things.
1.I am NOT a scammer and laugh at the people on this board who are quite willing to say publically that I am! You don't know me so you're just making guesses after hearing 1 side of the story.
2. I sold the bass in good faith and it did not have the extent of cracks that are pictured. There may have been laquer cracks but nothing more than that. Those are the first pictures I have seen of them at that extent.
3. Bass was sent insured up to £500,I'm quite happy to scan and post the reciept with extra insurance.
4. At NO POINT did I say to the seller,"so what,you got it cheap". I would love for him to post where I said that.
5.If I had seen the cracks I would have told the buyer to hold the bass there as that is what is needed when a claim is to be made,he showed me nothing,I only saw it on this forum after being tipped off by friends who frequent here.
6. He seems to think by pointing out that his wife works for the police force that this will somehow scare me into refunding him before I have my bass back. An honest seller is in no way intimidated by this and was fairly pointless to mention it I thought.
7. The courier's website has indeed shown it to be delivered,but with no address ,just Aberdeen and certainly not my name or signature.
8. Which one of you on this board would refund somebody when you don't have the bass back? Be honest?
9. I have my own signature series with Overwater so i'm hardly going to be a scammer!
10. I have tried number 19 twice and no answer. I've always maintained that when I get the bass back I'll issue a refund,ask the buyer to deny that![/i][/color]

I'm just passing this on (as received). Please don't shoot the messenger. [/quote]
Thanks for posting this Rich and I'll check with the mods to establish if there's a reason why Ron couldn't have posted this response himself; as always I'll give the benefit of the doubt that maybe extenuating circumstances prevent him posting personally... though he posts often enough on another forum so not withstanding newbie restrictions I'm puzzled.

I work all day every day with people who use the minutiae of detail to try and mask the bigger picture so you'll forgive me if I don't respond to the 10 points posed by Ron. However, I will ask a couple of basic questions which I'd appreciate being answered in an open and honest manner so that there is no ambiguity to facilitate squirming at a later date!

A) Why, WHY, [size=4]WHY[/size] didn't you at ANY point ask for pictures of the damage, especially if [u]as you claim[/u] you had full insurance?
Why have you wasted so much time (and continue to do so; pt 7 above) and effort via the ebay communications and the ebay resolution Centre to deflect from the fact that you knew fine well that the bass was with a neighbour (ie it was not my signature, it isn't my 'next-door neighbour' etc etc)?

Actually, I could go on asking a multitude of questions but ultimately regardless of whether this was a premeditated scam or you are p*ssed off because the bass has issues and you thought passing it off would be painless and easy (hmmm is that a question for another day, why you sold a £2k bass and yet hadn't even plugged it in and established that the vol pot was shot to sh*t?), it can't be that hard to see that I returned the bass to you in good faith and it is sitting with one of your neighbours waiting for you to collect it... why the fcuk am I left waiting for a refund when all you have to do is catch your neighbour when he is in and ask for your parcel? PLEASE rather than play your silly deflection tactics just answer the last bit!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='tm486' post='1230509' date='May 13 2011, 10:17 PM']10.The buyer has not once claimed otherwise. He has stated that you have offered a full refund upon receiving the bass, and I truly hope that being unable to contact the person living at number 19 is the only problem.[/quote]

Sooooo wish I was quicker with responses!

Tom, I've no idea who you are but your last point cuts through the cr4p as I was trying to do towards the end of my previous reply... the bass sits with your neighbour; why the deflection tactics Ron?

Oh and you've a deal with Chris May for a signature bass... that'll be the Chris May who commented earlier in the thread and has offered to take a look at the bass! It might pay to take him up on that offer.

[tm486]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1230526' date='May 13 2011, 10:41 PM']Tom, I've no idea who you are but your last point cuts through the cr4p as I was trying to do towards the end of my previous reply... the bass sits with your neighbour; why the deflection tactics Ron?[/quote]

I am fairly new to this forum, but there are so many points that the seller has raised that made no sense to me, so i am genuinely just interested to see his reply. I really hope this gets sorted out soon for you.

Cheers

Tom

[Shockwave]

Haha, Ronz is a regular on the Neil Moser forums and insulted me on another forum. Myself and a number of people know hes a bit of a pratt as well.
He has a pretty close relationship to Overwater I believe.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='1230577' date='May 13 2011, 11:46 PM']Haha, Ronz is a regular on the Neil Moser forums and insulted me on another forum. Myself and a number of people know hes a bit of a prat as well.
He has a pretty close relationship to Overwater I believe.[/quote]
Best he not ask for a reference from the Mods then!

However, a 'close relationship with Overwater'...

[karlfer]

It is a shame that there is so much deflection going on. To alienate a good number of BC'ers and possibly the legendary Overwater by simply twisting and turning instead of cutting to the basic's, is a bit mis-guided in my opinion.
OK, off the fence time, growing a spine time.
WH has a fantastic reputation on here and I very much doubt he would jeopardise that.
Hope it works out justly for you fella.
Karl.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='karlfer' post='1230643' date='May 14 2011, 06:41 AM']It is a shame that there is so much deflection going on. To alienate a good number of BC'ers and possibly the legendary Overwater by simply twisting and turning instead of cutting to the basic's, is a bit mis-guided in my opinion.
OK, off the fence time, growing a spine time.
WH has a fantastic reputation on here and I very much doubt he would jeopardise that.
Hope it works out justly for you fella.
Karl.[/quote]
Cheers Karl and I can finally draw a line under this... no more deflection from the seller!

Message via eBay;

'Bass handed in from 19 today,they had been working,refund as promised,had a good laugh at your buddies on basschat,cheers'

Now I don't care if Ron/Ronz/Big Ronz deems it fit to come back to BassChat and offer a response but I'll say here and now that there are good, decent individuals on this site who have offering moral and practical support and if you genuinely think that they are to be laughed at mate then that is a sad reflection on you. However, I think your parting shot via ebay is 'probably' as a result of the fact that you feel a bit of a t1t for what you've been playing at over the last week or so.

Do I think you are a regular scammer operating on a regular basis to fleece folk... No, not really! I reckon you chanced upon an opportunity (a cheap Overwater) that you thought might turn you a quick profit and unfortunately for you it went pear-shaped and you were just playing silly beggars with the whole 'not my signature/not my address/I haven't got the bass' hoping that maybe you'd get away with keeping the bass and the money due to some technicality over the return of the bass. Unfortunately for you, in this age of communication technology, the world is getting ever smaller and the music scene connection contracts that even smaller again, hence you got brought down to earth with a bump.

So once again I'd like to publicly thank those people on Basschat that have either offered me advice, practical support or who've just read this thread maybe without even passing comment and I'll leave this with (hopefully) one final thought.

I have my money back now so I could be all righteous, pompous and forgiving about this whole matter but do you know what... I'm not! Despite what I've said above, I do personally think that Ron is a fcukin devious awkward tw4t and I hope that karma comes back and takes a chunk out of his backside.

Later guys... Oh and is anybody keeping the BassChat score because that's another one to us.

[BB3000S]

Yaayy!!

[wateroftyne]

Excellent! What a tool.

Let's hope he doesn't sell it to another unsuspecting soul...

[chrismuzz]

Well it certainly won't be one of us lot

Glad to hear it all turned out good in the end, plus you've caused mass amusement for us all over the whole thing so in all it's a total win on your part!

[Ou7shined]

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1230677' date='May 14 2011, 08:00 AM']WOOOO HOOOO that was nice to wake up to I'm sure.[/quote]

Oh yes!

Odd how he got the bass back at 01:52 this morning!

That's the time he closed the case and as he's insisted that he lives alone and his neighbour has been working (can't/won't dispute that one) I'm assuming that he's come back from the pub/a gig and though 'fcuk it I may as well give #19 a knock and see if he's in' because otherwise it indicates that maybe he's had the bass for some time now!

[Merton]

Good news!