High action and tone

[niceguyhomer]

Just having a noodle in my den and began tweaking the action on my Stingray 5 - I was raising it to get rid of a bit of fret clatter as I call it and I noticed how much the tone changed as I raised the action.

I've now got the action set quite high and the tone is astoundingly different even though I adjusted the pup height correspondingly. It's particularly noticeable with the B and E strings which are much tighter sounding.

I knew it had some influence on tone but not this much.

[silverfoxnik]

+1 to that

IMO, though having a low action is easier to play, the trade off is that the tone is better when the action is that bit higher.

[Beedster]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='1224786' date='May 9 2011, 09:10 AM']+1 to that

IMO, though having a low action is easier to play, the trade off is that the tone is better when the action is that bit higher.[/quote]

Yep

[Wil]

I can't stand a bass with the action set too low for this reason - notes ring clearer, and seem to have more thump when the action is set higher.

[Monckyman]

Def more thump. I think the increased tension makes the strings sound entirely different.
I`ve been trying to lower the relief on my Korean, as it`s playable but tiring,though the sound is excellent!
So much so that I raised the action on my Mexican a little to get a bit of that on both guitars.
It almost sounds slightly compressed, which I suppose the string vibrations are at a higher tension.

[Wil]

Apparently tension remains the same when raising the action (otherwise I suppose the strings would no longer be in tune) but there's a definate change in... stiffness? Fnar.

Whatever the technical term I love the feel on the left hand, the extra pressure required to keep notes fretted makes percussive ghost notes and the like a lot easier. It also helps stop my sloppy playing from creating all manner of clattery noise...

Edited May 9, 2011 by Wil

[BigRedX]

It's called "compliance". It's affected by what happens to the string between the witness points (nut, saddle) and the string anchors (machine heads, tail piece) for both the break angles and the length of extra string.

Raising the action will alter both of these factors - the angle will be more acute and the string length slightly longer.

[chris_b]

A few years ago I had my Lakland set up by the Gallery. They preferred a credit card thickness action and I preferred the action high. I don't "dig in" these days so while I don't [i]need[/i] a high action, I still prefer the sound.

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1224854' date='May 9 2011, 10:39 AM']It's called "compliance". It's affected by what happens to the string between the witness points (nut, saddle) and the string anchors (machine heads, tail piece) for both the break angles and the length of extra string.

Raising the action will alter both of these factors - the angle will be more acute and the string length slightly longer.[/quote]


I've heard that term "compliance" used before... but I can't make sense of the idea when thinking about the physics of a string held in tension, vibrating or not.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Wil' post='1224844' date='May 9 2011, 10:34 AM']Apparently tension remains the same when raising the action (otherwise I suppose the strings would no longer be in tune) but there's a definate change in... stiffness? Fnar.[/quote]


NOt sure how much this contributes... but it contributes some, for sure:

if the action is high, the string has to be pressed harder, to cover a longer vertical distance towards the fretboard. The more you push a tense string away from its resting position, the harder it gets: increased tension. This is reflected in teh readjustments in the saddle positions (intonation) necessary when changing the action.

I just don't know how much this effect contributes to teh total perceived stiffness... but it's the only one I can satisfactorily explain and understand.

If you have a dynamometer, hook it up to the E string, and pull sideways

[deepbass5]

Interesting those who have replied so far believe there is a difference and that the string length is longer with high action. I would question if this is the reason, unless you are confusing action with regard to bridge height or action by changing the relief in the neck by adjusting the truss rod. With a forward bow you are shortening the string length, when I adjust my set up I usually check if the relief is right first and have found that adjusting the neck back so increasing string length actually improves tension and sound and makes octave tuning easier and correct. (Open - 12th fret).

Those of you above do you prefer high action due to a lot of relief forward bow. And or bridge height

Summing up what I have said above I find minimal relief is best, then adjust action bridge saddle height to suit playing style, then pickups to maintain maximum volume

This one should run Homer

[JTUK]

Nothing would make me want to raise the action...it is not the lowest but it is fast and I like to be able to do that if I feel like it..
I don't want anything grabbing or tring me out and I don't think I struggle for tone anyway so I don't need to follow this thinking.
I am pretty clean anyway, IMO, so don't worry about buzzes

Horses for courses.

[matski]

I think it was Bubinga5 who once said: "the string needs room to do it's thing". I liked that.

[sup][sub]Oh, and I prefer the sound of a higher action too, btw.[/sub][/sup]

[Wil]

[quote name='deepbass5' post='1225115' date='May 9 2011, 02:11 PM']Interesting those who have replied so far believe there is a difference and that the string length is longer with high action. I would question if this is the reason, unless you are confusing action with regard to bridge height or action by changing the relief in the neck by adjusting the truss rod. With a forward bow you are shortening the string length, when I adjust my set up I usually check if the relief is right first and have found that adjusting the neck back so increasing string length actually improves tension and sound and makes octave tuning easier and correct. (Open - 12th fret).

Those of you above do you prefer high action due to a lot of relief forward bow. And or bridge height

Summing up what I have said above I find minimal relief is best, then adjust action bridge saddle height to suit playing style, then pickups to maintain maximum volume

This one should run Homer[/quote]

I've experimented with using more neck relief, similar results to raising the action but I find it causes more strain on the left hand and buzzing/clacking above the 12th fret. I prefer to use just a touch more than a credit card of relief and raise the bridge saddles until I reach the preferred string height, then set intonation/pickup heights.

I find the stiffness/tension/whatever difference most pronounced on the left hand due to the increased distance you have to press the string down in order to fret, the right hand feel could be entirely in my head, but the left hand difference is definately there.

[Doddy]

[quote name='mcnach' post='1225084' date='May 9 2011, 01:52 PM']NOt sure how much this contributes... but it contributes some, for sure:

if the action is high, the string has to be pressed harder, to cover a longer vertical distance towards the fretboard. The more you push a tense string away from its resting position, the harder it gets: increased tension. This is reflected in teh readjustments in the saddle positions (intonation) necessary when changing the action.

I just don't know how much this effect contributes to teh total perceived stiffness... but it's the only one I can satisfactorily explain and understand.

If you have a dynamometer, hook it up to the E string, and pull sideways[/quote]
But,on a 34" scale instrument a string has to be a specific tension over that distance to produce the desired
pitch. If the tension is increased,the pitch will change.
Going from your example,yes you have to press the string down further if you use a higher action,but the tension
of the string(assuming you keep the string gauge the same) will have to be the same.

[derrenleepoole]

I've always had a preference for what I would call a medium action - I hate it too low because I don't like the string clatter etc, too high and you can introduce hand fatigue etc (got diddy hands anyway). But seriously, play and upright bass for any length of time and any electric bass will be like playing a ukelele when you go back to it! It's made me realise that the holy grail of action is perhaps misguided, mythical at best! It all comes down to technique. Tone though, well that's a different matter!

Edited May 9, 2011 by derrenleepoole

[kerley]

Agree. The tension will be the same. What I hate about high action is how far the string has to be pressed down and it feels like typing on an old type writer.
It will also be slower. Imagine an action of 2cm versus 1mm and how much extra travel and work your fingers have to do for every notE.
Okay so no-one has 2cm action but just getting the point across!

Edited May 9, 2011 by kerley

[mcnach]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1225145' date='May 9 2011, 02:37 PM']But,on a 34" scale instrument a string has to be a specific tension over that distance to produce the desired
pitch. If the tension is increased,the pitch will change.
Going from your example,yes you have to press the string down further if you use a higher action,but the tension
of the string(assuming you keep the string gauge the same) will have to be the same.[/quote]


true, that's why I disagree with those who feel having more string behind the nut or whatever makes the string have more tension...

by the time the string reaches its desired pitch, the tension must be the same, but with low action the string is nearly there and it requires just a bit of help to fret it. With high action we need to push the string longer. It's true the final tension should be the same but maybe it's that "pushing for a longer distance" that makes it feel harder.

I don't know. Perhaps what we feel is not so much the final tension or total pull, but the relative change between resting and achieving the desired note. After all, it's not like we require a lot of strength to push a string... so it could be that it's not so much how much we have to press, absolutely, but the fact that we have to go from X-10 to X, or from X-20 to X, where X is teh final tension...

just thinking out loud...

to be clear, yes, I am on the "same pitch = same tension" camp.

Edited May 9, 2011 by mcnach

[Rayman]

[quote name='Wil' post='1224792' date='May 9 2011, 09:22 AM']I can't stand a bass with the action set too low for this reason - notes ring clearer, and seem to have more thump when the action is set higher.[/quote]

Ditto.

My basses have always had some daylight under the strings because I do clatter the strings pretty hard live, and they just sound so much better. For me a low action makes it harder to play and makes it sound worse. I guess it depends how you play. If you're a jazzer with a light touch, then maybe a low action is fine, but not for me.

[Roland Rock]

I've just been considering this point. On my bass, the action is 'medium', and looking down the neck, it looks like the rod could do with a tweak. There is that niggling feeling that I should sort it out, as the neck could be straighter and the action could be lower. The thing is, I love the tone and love the playability, so have to keep telling myself 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. If I fiddled with it, I'd be afraid if it didn't work out, I'd never be able to get it back to that bass I know and love.

[Prosebass]

The tension always remains the same due to physics.
What can make a difference is the total length of the string between the anchor points (not the nut to saddle length)
I always find that my headless basses 'seem' to have more tension as the overall length of the strings is shorter.
This means they have less compliance (governed by string length) so feel to have more tension. simples....

Obviously many other factors apply like torsional rigidity of the neck , string gauge and construction etc..

One thing that always intrigues me as a builder is what is classed as 'low action' ?
Some refer to it as anything under 3mm at the 12th , others say different.
Another factor is even or rising action. I try to build my basses so they have an even action from about the 5th fret to the 24th
Easier to achieve on a single cut than a traditional design as the heel end of the neck is more rigid.

So what is low action....? you tell me.

[Wil]

[quote name='Roland Rock' post='1225173' date='May 9 2011, 03:08 PM']I've just been considering this point. On my bass, the action is 'medium', and looking down the neck, it looks like the rod could do with a tweak. There is that niggling feeling that I should sort it out, as the neck could be straighter and the action could be lower. The thing is, I love the tone and love the playability, so have to keep telling myself 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. If I fiddled with it, I'd be afraid if it didn't work out, I'd never be able to get it back to that bass I know and love.[/quote]


Just count the turns when you adjust and you should be ok. It's good to experiment with different setups, otherwise you might be playing with something less than ideal and not realise. It was only after trying different amounts of relief and low to high string heights that I settled on a medium high action as the best [i]for me[/i].

Edited May 9, 2011 by Wil

[4 Strings]

Tension has to be the same to give the same note with the same string. However, the additional distance required to fret a string with a high action can cause it to go a bit sharp. Can rectify this with the intonation adjustment. I never think its a good idea to set the action by adjusting the truss rod. That takes ages to get the relief just right and it affects so much of the feel of the bass, its so easy to keep things stable and adjust the bridge saddles for action.

As for me, I set it as low as it will go without buzzing, a great neck will allow this to be really low with the faintest of relief. For recording I can be more focussed in my playing and it needs to be perfectly clean so I always raise the action a little so no last second buzz ruins a take.

Even though you pluck the string parallel with the body when it 'does its thing' it actually vibrates in a circle. It definitely needs a bit of space to do this. If it doesn't the tone it gives is different, less body and bass. JJ and Jaco were renown for almost unplayable basses due to very high action and I'm sure we all envy their sound (same for Bob Babbit). Entwhistle's live (at Leeds) sound is generally like that of a low action - gritty, trebly - fantastic but not with the same body.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1225145' date='May 9 2011, 02:37 PM']But,on a 34" scale instrument a string has to be a specific tension over that distance to produce the desired
pitch. If the tension is increased,the pitch will change.
Going from your example,yes you have to press the string down further if you use a higher action,but the tension
of the string(assuming you keep the string gauge the same) will have to be the same.[/quote]

But the pitch DOES change when you fret the string, we just adjust the intonation to compensate.

Doh! Forgot to press reply for a bit, by the time I had 4 Strings had beaten me to it, but much better. So +1 to all that

Edited May 9, 2011 by LawrenceH

[4000]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1224827' date='May 9 2011, 10:09 AM']Def more thump.[/quote]

Which is why I don't like it as much. Higher action doesn't work for me. Every time I raise my action (which I do occasionally) I always hate the sound and so end up lowering it again.

Of course your preference will be affected by the interaction between the action height and the way you play (both left and right hands), amongst a million other things.

Edited May 9, 2011 by 4000