Kitting out my garage as a rehearsal space

[Happy Jack]

I have a bog-standard kit-built garage made out of concrete panels which get bolted together, then a corrugated roof stuck on the top.

It's not damp-proof, or insulated, or even vaguely soundproof.

Here's my thinking:

1. Lay a plastic grid on the concrete floor to provide a slightly raised surface.
2. Lay 18mm marine ply as a floor.
3. Sort of dry-line the concrete walls with 9mm marine ply sheets.
4. Put a ceiling over the room-within-a-room using 9mm marine ply.
5. Cover the plywood walls with [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300551953654&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT[/url]
6. Lay a lino or cushioned floor on top of the ply.

After the appropriate messing-about with doors, lights, plug sockets, etc. I should have a space that is dry, capable of being heated, and is not soundproof but a great deal less likely to annoy the neighbours.

Any thoughts?

Has anyone used this "closed cell foam" stuff? Does it actually deliver on sound-reduction?

[BigRedX]

Are you hoping to be able to use a drum kit (and whole band) in there or is it going to be just for you to play bass in?

Bass frequencies are the problematic ones because they transmit through the structure of the building. You attenuate these by building a room completely inside the existing structure and physically isolated from it as much as possible. What you need is high mass for both the structures and isolation between them. You may find that by the time you've got enough soundproofing in there the volume of the resulting space will no longer be sufficient for a whole band.

[Happy Jack]

The plan would be to use only electronic drums, running through a small PA. That would allow complete control of my drummer's volume.

I want to use the space for two things.

Firstly, for low-volume rehearsals intended for working up new material and sorting out arrangements, volume levels being set by UN-amplified vox. Once the material is sorted, then we can take it to a full-volume environment.

Secondly, for home recording into a Zoom R16 with all the instruments being DI'd. Room sound would amount to monitors plus vox.

At that sort of volume level, bass and drums will hopefully present less of a problem.

Wouldn't they?

[Thurbs]

Just a thought, does your drummer have an electric kit? If so I would get a mixing desk in there and a low power PA with everyone going through it. That way you can turn down to just above conversation levels, get a really good mix and not piss off the neighbours.

We do it every now and again around the guitarists house and really shows up issues you have playing together. Well worth it.

[gary mac]

I used methods 1 and 2 from your list when I converted my garage. Worked very well with the advantage of making the whole environment feel warmer and less like a garage.

[icastle]

I think I'd be more inclined to put battens on the walls and put the foam between the battens before plasterboarding over the top of that lot.

Raising the floor is a good idea.
I'd use a plastic sheet over the whole floor (helps keep the damp out) and then battens on top of that.
It would probably be worth filling the spaces with rockwool - that'll give you an extra bit of sound damping and keep your feet warmer in the winter.

Insulating the roof space would be a good idea as well.

I did a project like this where I used to live and got the neighbours on either side involved - I played loud music in the room and kept turning it up until they said 'that would be annoying'.
Once I had that level I backed it off by 10% and never ever had a complaint in the 5 years I was there.

[chris_b]

I'd batten the walls and use Celotex PIR Insulation Board. Then cover with the ply. Don't forget the aircon, locks and insurance.

[Ross]

I'd probably do something similar, highly doubt that foam will do much for sound reduction, acoustics on the other hand.

[bassace]

HJ sounds a good idea, but to save a bit of cash I'd recommend cutting out all that marine ply and subbing OSB (oriented strand board, the stuff they board up windows with). It has external properties, ie is weather resistant, and its lack of attractiveness would me mitigated by the material you're putting over it. It is not quite as stable as ply so leave a 4mm joint between panels. If you're worried about sound getting through, and I wouldn't, then apply some mastic.

We used to rehearse and record in a garage where we put egg boxes all round the walls.

[thunderbird13]

how about saving some money and buying a Jam Hub and a heater

[url="http://www.jamhub.com/what/index.html"]jamhub ( in case you dont know)[/url]

[Jakester]

As a longtime drummer and now bass player, whenever this question came up in relation to drums the answer was always to go for mass ro block the sound, but with the mass decoupled from the main structure - room within a room, was the phrase usually used.

If your guy has a leccy kit, I would make the room w bit more comfortable, and then look to all play through a mixer into a few pairs of decent headphones - certainly cheaper than soundproofing a room.

[ZMech]

Not sure if the answer to this should be obvious, but does the garage have any joining walls? As said before, it's the bass that's often the problem, as it travels much more nicely along/between walls, but if it's a detached structure this shouldn't matter as much. Haven't actually tried doing so, but in theory standing your bass amp on some of that foam should help isolate it, so that it doesn't travel into the walls so well.

If cost is an issue, you could try getting packaging foam instead of that special soundproofing stuff. It's probably pretty much the same thing anyway, except with a different density.

[jhk]

A cheap source of materials to consider between the battens is rock wool(the green type not yellow,yellow only good for thermal properties)also roofing felt, as these all have different densities and are very useful in absorbing sound.Maybe worth considering is when you come to the walls,if possible kick out the angles where possible so you don`t have constant 90 degrees symmetry.This will help deaden the room by cancelling an amount of reflection between walls.Try to isolate(floating )floor from wall .

hope this helps ....................................

[grimbeaver]

dont bother with marine ply, its expensive and the only difference is the glue used, the bare timber of the ply is the same as cheaper ply, marine ply has glue that wont break down immersed in salt water, just use cheap sheathing ply but paint it

[BigRedX]

If you are going to be playing at loud HiFi volumes with electronic drums then a modified version of what you proposed in your first post should work.

I'd go for either 2x2 or 4x2 battens to support the new walls floor and ceiling. Fill the spaces with Rockwool RW5 slabs (which is yellow) and then for the walls and ceiling use ½" ply with ½" plasterboard over the top with the joins staggered. For the floor 2 layers of ply.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1227226' date='May 11 2011, 10:15 AM']Are you hoping to be able to use a drum kit (and whole band) in there or is it going to be just for you to play bass in?

Bass frequencies are the problematic ones because they transmit through the structure of the building. You attenuate these by building a room completely inside the existing structure and physically isolated from it as much as possible. What you need is high mass for both the structures and isolation between them. You may find that by the time you've got enough soundproofing in there the volume of the resulting space will no longer be sufficient for a whole band.[/quote]Yeah, I know, my neighbours f***ing hate me, especially as I'm trying out dub bass lines for a new project.

Still, better than the Celion Dion that gets played next door.

[Happy Jack]

Guys, some excellent help and advice here ... exactly as I'd hoped.

I've started doing some fairly serious digging now, based on all this stuff. As & when something actually happens, I'll keep a photographic record and maybe inflict it on you at some point.

[51m0n]

If you want some better isolation then put your floor down on tennis balls.

Seriously.

But batten down around the floor area.

Fill this area with old tennis balls. not literally but not more than an inch or so between the balls.

Put your actual floor down on that. The balls will compress as more weight goes on, but they will support literally tonnes of weight. With enough weight the compression is such that the inner build doesnt roll off, until that point just secure the inner floor in place temporarily.

Once your floor is in place, build battens off that and double layer it with plasterboard. The two layers of plasterboard should be caulked and at an offset so the seams dont line up.

Dont use foam, high density rockwool is the way for some sound insulation. That and the air gap will be fine.

Then whack a ceiling up and double layer that with plasterboard.

The isolation will be good enough to support the use of this space for getting medieval on the sionger's a**se if he hits the notes wrong, you can supply your own pliers and blow torch....

[51m0n]

You can use half tennis balls if you like:-

[bremen]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1229002' date='May 12 2011, 04:40 PM']If you want some better isolation then put your floor down on tennis balls.

Seriously.

But batten down around the floor area.

Fill this area with old tennis balls. not literally but not more than an inch or so between the balls.

Put your actual floor down on that. The balls will compress as more weight goes on, but they will support literally tonnes of weight. With enough weight the compression is such that the inner build doesnt roll off, until that point just secure the inner floor in place temporarily.

Once your floor is in place, build battens off that and double layer it with plasterboard. The two layers of plasterboard should be caulked and at an offset so the seams dont line up.

Dont use foam, high density rockwool is the way for some sound insulation. That and the air gap will be fine.

Then whack a ceiling up and double layer that with plasterboard.

The isolation will be good enough to support the use of this space for getting medieval on the sionger's a**se if he hits the notes wrong, you can supply your own pliers and blow torch....[/quote]

+1 to all that. And make sure it's airtight except for the deliberate ventilation.

Friend of mine did a great job on his garage using this stuff:

[url="http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/soundproofing/rbar.htm"]http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/sou...oofing/rbar.htm[/url]

and a lot of heavy plasterboard. He doesn't use live drums but anything else is inaudible from outside, and his neighbours still love him.

[lojo]

If you intend to use ply dont waste your money on marine ply, it has no advantages over a construction grade WBP in your situation

Edited May 13, 2011 by lojo

[icastle]

[quote name='lojo' post='1229591' date='May 13 2011, 07:21 AM']If you intend to use ply dont waste your money on marine ply, it has no advantages over a construction grade WBP in your situation[/quote]

...unless you want the rehearsal space to act as an emergency escape pod in case of flooding...

[TimR]

We did something similar with a prefab garage in the 80's. I'm guessing materials have come along a bit.

We made a frame out of 4"x2". This was effectively a box within the garage. Left a gap of about 2" between the frame and the garage walls. Then filled between the uprights with loft insulation (I'm guessing that the panels that you can get now are better). Then plasterboard over the top for walls and ceiling. The floor was just ordinary ply. I suppose chip board flooring is best now.

It got very hot and humid in the summer end they guy ended up buying an industrial dehumidifier that he ran after the practices and a couple of hours each day in the winter to stop his drum kit rotting.

The door was a bit of a nightmare as it had to be insulated and ended up about 5" thick.

We had a friend block the 'garage door' end with block work. It may be better to find some way of making huge soundproof doors that open instead. Loading drums through the insulated door was quite tricky.

It worked really well.

Bear in mind with all this internal frame you will lose about 6" off each side of the garage so a 6' wide garage will end up being only 5' wide.

We moved the garage in the back of my car. We did many trips as we could only get about 4 slabs in the car before the wheel arches started rubbing. I think there were about 50 slabs in all.

Edited May 13, 2011 by TimR

[Happy Jack]

TimR, this is the way my plans are drifting, though I'll be using plywood (now NOT marine ply!) rather than plasterboard. This is down to personal preference and very restricted DIY skills ... I bloody hate working with plasterboard but I know where I am with plywood.

The walls will be: original concrete garage wall // Rockwool sound insulation 30mm // Spruce plywood 12mm // Carpet underlay 7mm.

Will that be "soundproof"? Nope. It doesn't need to be.

What I'm looking for is sound [b][i]reduction[/i][/b], not sound removal. We'll be using electronic drums and DI-ing all the instruments, so there's no need for anything to be louder than a full-on singing voice.

In a proper rehearsal studio we tend to play at something like 100dB, which I think is excessive and requires me to wear my ER15s. As a low volume rehearsal space I would expect us to play (and record) at 90dB or less. If my sound reduction measures can then take that down to 80dB or less immediately outside the garage, then the nearest people (at least 20 yards away) will be hearing the sound of a transistor radio in the park.

Maybe.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1229839' date='May 13 2011, 12:23 PM']The walls will be: original concrete garage wall // Rockwool sound insulation 30mm // Spruce plywood 12mm // Carpet underlay 7mm.[/quote]
Would it be worth putting some membrane between the concrete wall and the rockwool? Damp issues and all that? Or are you going for the authentic 'whiffy rehearsal room' vibe?

I can swing by and smoke off a couple of packs of Embassy if you like...

Edited May 13, 2011 by skankdelvar