Mixing and Layering

[badboy1984]

Hi,

I'm kinda new to recording and mixing etc.

The main instrument I'm using a midi drum which play in toontrack ezdrummer, audio track bass guitar, mic acoustic, electric guitar clean and distort electric guitar.

I'm having so much trouble with distort guitar because I just realise you need to layer the distort guitar and pan them as well to get a good distort sound without being too muddy or thin in the mix etc.

Was wondering what else do I need layering and pan? Only the distort guitar need layering?

[51m0n]

Big subject!

You need to be adept with panning, eq, multitracking, compression, reverb, limiting, etc etc etc to get a great mix.

All of which is pointless if you havent got a well tracked source in the first place, good kit, well played in a good room, properly mic'ed with a decent mic are also required.

[cheddatom]

I don't think you need to layer and pan distorted guitars - it's not a rule. It might be that the acoustic and clean guitars balance well on opposite sides with the distorted guitar in the centre.

[badboy1984]

I've try layering and EQ for each layer etc and reduce the distortion and it sound much better....... but when i mix the song out in cubase and play it back on my ipod with headphone, the distortion guitar sound completely loss in the mix and become muff. It sounded decent on the monitor speaker and pc speaker .....

[cheddatom]

Can you upload a sample of your mix?

[badboy1984]

Yeah i gonna do it tonight cos at work atm.

but I've try this last night.

I've done some testing last night again.

Like I said, it sounded ok on monitor speaker and pc speaker. Thats a good start already. Sounded ok on my dad's bose sound system but on ipod you can't hear no distortion at all except some more nasty bass added to the song. I thought is the headphone that is bad so i use a different set of headphone instead of the ipod headphone. The result is even worse.

So I tried the headphones again on my pc speaker and my dad's sound system, it sounded ok. So is not headphone problem.

Only thing I've not try yet render the track with distortion guitar only and try play it back on the ipod to see can i hear the track or not. If it doesn't, i think i got some problem here .....

[51m0n]

[quote name='badboy1984' post='1228451' date='May 12 2011, 09:32 AM']Yeah i gonna do it tonight cos at work atm.

but I've try this last night.

I've done some testing last night again.

Like I said, it sounded ok on monitor speaker and pc speaker. Thats a good start already. Sounded ok on my dad's bose sound system but on ipod you can't hear no distortion at all except some more nasty bass added to the song. I thought is the headphone that is bad so i use a different set of headphone instead of the ipod headphone. The result is even worse.

So I tried the headphones again on my pc speaker and my dad's sound system, it sounded ok. So is not headphone problem.

Only thing I've not try yet render the track with distortion guitar only and try play it back on the ipod to see can i hear the track or not. If it doesn't, i think i got some problem here .....[/quote]

You are rendering this as a vrey high quality mp3 before listening on the ipod arent you?

[badboy1984]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1228469' date='May 12 2011, 09:51 AM']You are rendering this as a vrey high quality mp3 before listening on the ipod arent you?[/quote]

I've render the final mix to *.wav because i can't render mp3 on my cubase LE unless i buy the license thing which i may consider doing it.

I import the *.wav file to adobe media encoder and convert it to 128 mp3 ........ either 128 or 256 i can do on adobe media encoder ......

[Bankai]

Emulated distortion/overdrive on guitars is very difficult to get right.

I suppose that's why studios still just use real amps playing to an audience of microphones.

[51m0n]

Oh, you're using some form of emulation for your distorted guitar rather than an amp?

Oh boy...

OK, not too much top, not too much top not too much top not too much top not too much top not too much top not too much top not too much top not too much top!

Everyone new to this game makes fizzy sounding brittle as sugar guitars. Big distorted guitar sounds roar they dont fizz. A nice smooth shelf from about 3KHz all the way up taking things down by anything upto 10dB can really help guitars sound 'right' in a mix.

You dont need a mass of bass, thats what the bass guitar is for - try a high pass at about 150Hz. You dont need a mass of top - it will cut through. You need to leave a space for the singer, so 4Khz is out too. Think around 2KHz for some presence (dont over do it!) have some weight around 400Hz (and scoop the bass a smidge there too), and kill some honk around 750 to 1KHz.

Thats all a really really rough guess though, I'd need you to post up the guitar track itself to be sure. Hell I'd need the mix to be really sure, and I havent the time spare to take on anything at the moment I'm afraid....

[cheddatom]

[quote name='badboy1984' post='1228478' date='May 12 2011, 10:00 AM']I've render the final mix to *.wav because i can't render mp3 on my cubase LE unless i buy the license thing which i may consider doing it.

I import the *.wav file to adobe media encoder and convert it to 128 mp3 ........ either 128 or 256 i can do on adobe media encoder ......[/quote]

When you listen to the mp3 with headphones on the PC, it sounds fine, but when you take it to the ipod you can't hear distorted guitars?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. an mp3 should sound the same on every system using the same headphones.

[lettsguitars]

eq! dist guitar-lose averything below 700hz and above 1k. and then add a couple of 2db boosts/spikes in the appropriate places according to your sound. a little panning goes a long way. this aint the 60's. pan reverbs the opposite way. the idea behind eq is to appoint each instrument it's own freq range so they aren't treading on eachothers toes. so if you boost say, the acoustic guitar at 200hz, a little cut in the bass at 200hz will help define the two the instruments.

[badboy1984]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1228608' date='May 12 2011, 11:55 AM']When you listen to the mp3 with headphones on the PC, it sounds fine, but when you take it to the ipod you can't hear distorted guitars?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. an mp3 should sound the same on every system using the same headphones.[/quote]

First I'm using Guitar Rig 4 for the distortion/overdrive sound. Sine I'm a bass player so i won't have guitar amp stuff to record.
Apart from Guitar Rig 4 which is software base effect, I've got a studio rack effect. the rack unit is Boss GX-700 guitar processor which have amp mod, distortion pedal, delay , rev etc.

I could line out the rack to my audio interface but I only get 1 take to get the effect right .......

Reason to use Guitar Rig is so i can add effects later.

In term of ipod problem, I don't quite get it myself, but you can't hear the distortion guitar when playing on the ipod with ipod headphone, but I can hear it on the pc speaker/or my dads sound system using the same ipod headphone. No compression or effect was apply on the ipod, so I don't get it.

This is the first track i making that have distortion guitar. Other track i recording was only clean electric, acoustic guitar, bass, piano and drum.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='badboy1984' post='1228660' date='May 12 2011, 12:32 PM']First I'm using Guitar Rig 4 for the distortion/overdrive sound. Sine I'm a bass player so i won't have guitar amp stuff to record.
Apart from Guitar Rig 4 which is software base effect, I've got a studio rack effect. the rack unit is Boss GX-700 guitar processor which have amp mod, distortion pedal, delay , rev etc.

I could line out the rack to my audio interface but I only get 1 take to get the effect right .......

Reason to use Guitar Rig is so i can add effects later.

In term of ipod problem, I don't quite get it myself, but you can't hear the distortion guitar when playing on the ipod with ipod headphone, but I can hear it on the pc speaker/or my dads sound system using the same ipod headphone. No compression or effect was apply on the ipod, so I don't get it.

This is the first track i making that have distortion guitar. Other track i recording was only clean electric, acoustic guitar, bass, piano and drum.[/quote]
no mate. record the guitar clean (with plugins) and then add outboard effects later with your fx loop.

Edited May 12, 2011 by lettsguitars

[badboy1984]

So i should stick with using guitar rig to record clean than mess around with guitar rig effects later? I think i need to try record the distortion guitar only and try it on the sound system before mixing everything else together. if the guitar sound ok on its own but loss in the final mix, then is a EQ problem i guess. If the guitar sound is bad on its own than is the distortion effect, EQ that i'm using making it bad.

Edited May 12, 2011 by badboy1984

[WHUFC BASS]

[quote name='Bankai' post='1228561' date='May 12 2011, 11:09 AM']Emulated distortion/overdrive on guitars is very difficult to get right.[/quote]

+1000

I think amp modellers / emulated distortion / digital effect distortion just sounds terrible in 99% of cases. i went through a phase of using them until I decided to mic up my 5150. Would only use digital for the very roughest of demos - certainly never for anything else.

[badboy1984]

[quote name='WHUFC BASS' post='1228721' date='May 12 2011, 01:08 PM']+1000

I think amp modellers / emulated distortion / digital effect distortion just sounds terrible in 99% of cases. i went through a phase of using them until I decided to mic up my 5150. Would only use digital for the very roughest of demos - certainly never for anything else.[/quote]

So i guess I'm wasting my time to get it right ........ unless i buy a guitar amp and mic it up to record?

[51m0n]

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1228648' date='May 12 2011, 12:27 PM']eq! dist guitar-lose averything below 700hz and above 1k. and then add a couple of 2db boosts/spikes in the appropriate places according to your sound.[/quote]

Err, I'd think losing everyinthin below 700hz and above 1KHz would leave pretty much nothing but a nasty honky sqawk....

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1228648' date='May 12 2011, 12:27 PM']a little panning goes a long way. this aint the 60's. pan reverbs the opposite way.[/quote]

I cant disagree with this enough. Har dpan the crap out of guitars, multitrack them pann half all the way left and half all the way right.

Keep them the hell away from the vocal at all costs!

Remember the vocal is the song, the chorus is the 'money shot'....

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='badboy1984' post='1228703' date='May 12 2011, 12:58 PM']So i should stick with using guitar rig to record clean than mess around with guitar rig effects later? I think i need to try record the distortion guitar only and try it on the sound system before mixing everything else together. if the guitar sound ok on its own but loss in the final mix, then is a EQ problem i guess. If the guitar sound is bad on its own than is the distortion effect, EQ that i'm using making it bad.[/quote]
er no. record using a rough guitar rig setup which can be removed later. then when it comes to mixing, send the clean signal out to your boss thingy and back into a new track. this means you get to keep the clean signal for experimenting. the best thing to do is send the signal into an amp which you can mic up and re-record. it's called re-amping and can be done with any instrument. this way you can experiment with different speaker setups, such as overdriven ipod speakers and such, without having to commit yourself to a certain sound/setup straight away. and as below, you can get the performance down and concentrate on sounds later.

Edited May 12, 2011 by lettsguitars

[51m0n]

Given your reliance on emulation I'd record clean (although feel free to monitor with any fx your system can cope with.

Then sort the actual sound out afterwards.

That way you should concentrate on the performance the most....

[badboy1984]

the playing is done because i recorded clean on cubase. just adding distortion to that clean tone that stab me on the back. I think i might need to borrow a friend's amp and mic it to see the differents ......

[WHUFC BASS]

[quote name='badboy1984' post='1228748' date='May 12 2011, 01:18 PM']So i guess I'm wasting my time to get it right ........ unless i buy a guitar amp and mic it up to record?[/quote]

Not necessarily. But I think you may be expecting too much from a digital guitar sound. if you did mic up a decent gutiar amp I think you'd get a more authentic sound. I know thats a sweeping statement but at least you'd be starting with a better source.

[quote name='51m0n' post='1228749' date='May 12 2011, 01:18 PM']I cant disagree with this enough. Har dpan the crap out of guitars, multitrack them pann half all the way left and half all the way right.

Keep them the hell away from the vocal at all costs!

Remember the vocal is the song, the chorus is the 'money shot'....[/quote]

This is another good piece of advice. Hard panning makes the whole sound bigger and lets the vocals, bass and drums shine though - it may also fix your muddy sounding guitar tracks as well. A bit of reverb and delay (not too much) will also give the guitars a much bigger and airy feel to them (we're talking distorted gutiars here). Another really important trick i learned was to make the two tracks sound slightly different - i.e. make one side sound slightly bassier than the other side. In some scenarios it enhances the pan effect.

Here's an example of heavily distorted and panned guitars.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhl3ZUxZNPQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhl3ZUxZNPQ[/url]

[cheddatom]

Just to add that emulated amps are not by default sh*t. Also, i've had great results recording a clean DI'd guitar and adding distortion and EQ afterwards.

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1228778' date='May 12 2011, 01:33 PM']Just to add that emulated amps are not by default sh*t. Also, i've had great results recording a clean DI'd guitar and adding distortion and EQ afterwards.[/quote]

+1 Absolutely!

I've had great results, but you definitely need to knwo what you are doing more than if you get a great amp and stick a U87 and a Cole ribbon mic in front of it going into great preamps blah blah blah....

[cheddatom]

Heh, I don't know what i'm doing!! I just play until it sounds right. Cutting loads of highs, boosting high mids, careful compression etc all seem to do the trick.