Band Setup

[JayPH]

Hi guys

I've been playing with a band for a couple of months now in my mates room. We have a drummer lined up but for the time being we just been playing with bass, 2 guitars and vocals. We were getting quite tight and everything was going well.

But....

We played in a function room tonight in a club and we will be practising regularly there. The thing is it sound absolutely awful.

We were all over the place with the timing and everything sounded dog rough.

The guitars just had 40w Vox valve amps and I was going through the PA with the singer because someone forgot the bass amp.

The thing is, if we want to do this seriously, what gear do we need? Is there a solid out of the box kind of setup that will worj for pubs and clubs. Is there somthing that every band does?

Sorry to be asking questions again but I have been out of the business for years and I don't even know where to begin looking

Cheers guys

J

[thisnameistaken]

I always bring my bass amp to use as an onstage monitor, and I face it at an angle so the drummer gets as much level from it as I do. If you can't have a bass amp on stage for whatever reason (or if you prefer not to - some bassists just go direct, post-FX/processing) then you need to be able to get your bass in the monitor mix through the PA. Personally I prefer to only have vocals in the PA monitors and rely on backline amps for everything else, so it's more like a rehearsal mix on stage and familiar-sounding.

[JayPH]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1232613' date='May 16 2011, 12:15 AM']I always bring my bass amp to use as an onstage monitor, and I face it at an angle so the drummer gets as much level from it as I do. If you can't have a bass amp on stage for whatever reason (or if you prefer not to - some bassists just go direct, post-FX/processing) then you need to be able to get your bass in the monitor mix through the PA. Personally I prefer to only have vocals in the PA monitors and rely on backline amps for everything else, so it's more like a rehearsal mix on stage and familiar-sounding.[/quote]

No we will have a decent bass amp to use. One of the guitarists has it, I don't remember the name of it now, Tracks somthing I think but he rekons it's very good.

It's more a case of what else we will need and how to arrange it all. Like a One-Size fits all solution. Is there a tried and tested setup that everyone uses?

Cheers

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JayPH' post='1232617' date='May 16 2011, 12:19 AM']Tracks somthing I think but he rekons it's very good.[/quote]

Trace Elliot at a guess. Yeah a lot of their gear is very good (if a bit complicated).

There really is no one-size-fits-all solution, it's very much dependent on the capabilities of the PA system in the venue. But always rehearse with the gear you will be taking to the gig and that will make life much simpler for you. Then it's just a matter of setting up exactly as you would for a rehearsal, and the venue's sound guys will either mic or take DI signals from the gear you use to rehearse and you can let them get on with their jobs.

Hopefully they're not shockingly incompetent sound guys. To be fair most aren't, and there's not much you can do about it if you get a bad one anyway - he's still going to be in charge of what the audience hears. All you get to decide is how it's going to sound on stage for you all. This is why you should use the same gear you rehearse with - so it sounds familiar on stage and you can concentrate on your performance.

[JayPH]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1232619' date='May 16 2011, 12:27 AM']Trace Elliot at a guess. Yeah a lot of their gear is very good (if a bit complicated).

There really is no one-size-fits-all solution, it's very much dependent on the capabilities of the PA system in the venue. But always rehearse with the gear you will be taking to the gig and that will make life much simpler for you. Then it's just a matter of setting up exactly as you would for a rehearsal, and the venue's sound guys will either mic or take DI signals from the gear you use to rehearse and you can let them get on with their jobs.

Hopefully they're not shockingly incompetent sound guys. To be fair most aren't, and there's not much you can do about it if you get a bad one anyway - he's still going to be in charge of what the audience hears. All you get to decide is how it's going to sound on stage for you all. This is why you should use the same gear you rehearse with - so it sounds familiar on stage and you can concentrate on your performance.[/quote]

Trace Elliot is bang on the money haha. How'd you get that from my inane ramblings about tracks haha.

To be honest I'm not sure the places we will play in to begin with will have their own Pa systems. the place we practiced in tonight didn't.

Thanks .

[xgsjx]

If you can, get all the backline (Bass & guitar amps, etc) behind everyone & then it's a case of making some adjustments to suit the venue you're playing in. It's really as simple as that & the PA is just to project everything better to the audience. I've played many gigs with no PA other than a small vocal PA.
If your bass was going thru the PA & the guitars wasn't, then it may have been a case of not being able to hear one another properly.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JayPH' post='1232620' date='May 16 2011, 12:33 AM']Trace Elliot is bang on the money haha. How'd you get that from my inane ramblings about tracks haha.[/quote]

When I was a kid all bass players aspired to use Trace Elliot amps. In the '90s they sold the brand to a big name (Gibson I think? I am going to get reamed for not knowing this!) and the reputation suffered a bit, but back in the day they were the mutt's nuts.

[JayPH]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1232624' date='May 16 2011, 12:42 AM']If you can, get all the backline (Bass & guitar amps, etc) behind everyone & then it's a case of making some adjustments to suit the venue you're playing in. It's really as simple as that & the PA is just to project everything better to the audience. I've played many gigs with no PA other than a small vocal PA.
If your bass was going thru the PA & the guitars wasn't, then it may have been a case of not being able to hear one another properly.[/quote]
Cheers fella. Maybe you're right and I'm in panic mode again. It wouldn't be the first time. It is the first time we've played loud and it was a mess. Maybe next week we can sort it out. Cheers!

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1232632' date='May 16 2011, 12:49 AM']When I was a kid all bass players aspired to use Trace Elliot amps. In the '90s they sold the brand to a big name (Gibson I think? I am going to get reamed for not knowing this!) and the reputation suffered a bit, but back in the day they were the mutt's nuts.[/quote]

Well he was raving about them. I've never heard of them Had a look on Google though after you told me and they are rather garish. They have to be good looking like that don't they? haha

[rmshaw37]

Put the amps behind the drummer so he gets a trickle of everything, don't start volume wars!

The quieter everything is, the easier it is to hear everything! This does not work for drums unless you have the screens set up around them, obviously not doable unless you're loaded lol. If you can, take a minute to jam through a couple of choruses to set up what you lot can hear before the sound guy starts checking individual sounds (also not always doable)

Also raising the bass amp towards ear level helps, not so much with the guitars as they naturally cut through more anyway.

Other than that just get out gigging and see what works for you guys!

[TimR]

Where the Vox guitar amps loud enough?

What was 'all over the place?'

What PA are you using?

Once you get an amp you'll get a better idea of what it sounds like out front. I'm guessing you had the bass through a 'band in a box' PA. Something like this: [url="http://www.imuso.co.uk/PA-Systems/Power-Mixers-and-Amps/Powered-Mixers"]Powered mixers[/url] in which case the Bass will be 'all over the place' and possibly the Vocals will suffer too as a result of the mixer trying to do Bass and vocals at too great a volume.

[JTUK]

Get the drummer involved first if you intend to use one on gigs.
And then set up to the natural volume of the drums...so you can ALL hear what is going on.
Adjust instrument/vocal vols accordingly.

Different type rooms make a huge difference so get used to working with unhelpful rooms..and the same applies..start the mix low and keep it in check. Don't let anyone instrument swamp the overall mix. If you do this, it is hard to recover and you might miss cues as you are lost etc etc ....

If you can't hear, you can't play... always always keep that in the equation and if anyone 'forgets' that, you'll always have potential problems so you may as well make it a band rule now, IMO/IME.

[JayPH]

Thanks for the input chaps.

The Vox amps were loud enough really but very distorted. They have lots of presets and I think there's too many variables on them and I also think you are all right about the levels being too high. Not sure what the PA is Tim. I'll get more involved next week and see exactly what we're working with. Having a separate bass amp can only help. The best way I can describe it was disorienting. I was finding it very difficult to keep the rhythm and it just sounded very muddy, distorted and confused.

Hopefully once the drummer gets on board we can iron out these problems.

Cheers

[Thurbs]

I think what you are describing a stage with poor monitoring. It may have been perfect FOH. Have you had any feedback from someone out front?

[TimR]

[quote name='JayPH' post='1232967' date='May 16 2011, 12:55 PM']Thanks for the input chaps.

The Vox amps were loud enough really but very distorted. They have lots of presets and I think there's too many variables on them and I also think you are all right about the levels being too high. Not sure what the PA is Tim. I'll get more involved next week and see exactly what we're working with. Having a separate bass amp can only help. The best way I can describe it was disorienting. I was finding it very difficult to keep the rhythm and it just sounded very muddy, distorted and confused.

Hopefully once the drummer gets on board we can iron out these problems.

Cheers[/quote]

Missed the bit that you had no drummer. You're probably hearing the sound of the bass reflecting off the walls rather than direct which will disorientate you and sound muddy. The guitars will be trying to keep in time with (the delayed) sound that they are hearing and you will try to pull back to stay in time with the guitars. Result timing all over the place.

If you have to play like this again you need to be close to the PA speaker as possible.

Drummer will sort. Assuming he is solid

[JayPH]

[quote name='Thurbs' post='1233124' date='May 16 2011, 03:02 PM']I think what you are describing a stage with poor monitoring. It may have been perfect FOH. Have you had any feedback from someone out front?[/quote]

Cheers Thurbs. No feedback from front because we were all playing but I will do this next week and put all the amps behind us.

[quote name='TimR' post='1233625' date='May 16 2011, 09:02 PM']Missed the bit that you had no drummer. You're probably hearing the sound of the bass reflecting off the walls rather than direct which will disorientate you and sound muddy. The guitars will be trying to keep in time with (the delayed) sound that they are hearing and you will try to pull back to stay in time with the guitars. Result timing all over the place.

If you have to play like this again you need to be close to the PA speaker as possible.

Drummer will sort. Assuming he is solid [/quote]

Cheers Tim. Yes that sounds about right because we are quite tight in my mates living room and we were all looking at each other ultra puzzled. i definitely kept slowing and speeding trying to find the right tempo. The only good songs we did was when I Jedi style blocked everything else out and just went at it.

I think having the drummer on board has to improve things. As long as he can hear me and we keep it tight together then all should be good.

On a slight tangent, what are these rigs used for:

[url="http://www.htfr.com/p/277242/hk_audio_soundhouse_one_600_watt_active_speaker_system"]http://www.htfr.com/p/277242/hk_audio_soun..._speaker_system[/url]

Could we use somthing like this and if so would we still need our back line of amps. Sorry guys but I am completely clueless about this. I haven't been in a band for 150 years

[squire5]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1232632' date='May 16 2011, 12:49 AM']When I was a kid all bass players aspired to use Trace Elliot amps. In the '90s they sold the brand to a big name (Gibson I think? I am going to get reamed for not knowing this!) and the reputation suffered a bit, but back in the day they were the mutt's nuts.[/quote]

I believe it was Peavey,IIRC.I may be wrong.usually am.

[vsmith1]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1232899' date='May 16 2011, 12:11 PM']Get the drummer involved first if you intend to use one on gigs.
And then set up to the natural volume of the drums...so you can ALL hear what is going on.
Adjust instrument/vocal vols accordingly.

Different type rooms make a huge difference so get used to working with unhelpful rooms..and the same applies..start the mix low and keep it in check. Don't let anyone instrument swamp the overall mix. If you do this, it is hard to recover and you might miss cues as you are lost etc etc ....

If you can't hear, you can't play... always always keep that in the equation and if anyone 'forgets' that, you'll always have potential problems so you may as well make it a band rule now, IMO/IME.[/quote]
Thoroughly agree - one of the reasons that you are "all over the place" is the change of venue - it will make things sound very different. I bet that you are losing the cues that you provide each other during a song. The thing is, that with time spent on setting up, sound checks, getting the levels, mix right will play off in hte long run. You will find that as you then get gigs in different places that the experiences of setting up and getting the levels right will mean you are able to adapt to the various places.

The basic thing that drives the mix and levels of my band is the drummer. The vocals have to get over the drummer, from there the guitar, keys, bass fit in. Personally, I use a small bass combo with a feed into the main PA. My combo is mainly for my hearing. I also put a bit of it in the monitor mix. I have found that the people in the band need some "education" about the difference between the main mix (ie FOH and what the audience hear) and the monitor mix (ie the foldback what we hear). Of course, there is always the struggle from most people that I need to hear more of me. It is a compromise - and just increasing the monitor levels can mean that the monitor spill will affect the main mix in small venues.

[JayPH]

[quote name='vsmith1' post='1233971' date='May 17 2011, 09:17 AM']Thoroughly agree - one of the reasons that you are "all over the place" is the change of venue - it will make things sound very different. I bet that you are losing the cues that you provide each other during a song. The thing is, that with time spent on setting up, sound checks, getting the levels, mix right will play off in hte long run. You will find that as you then get gigs in different places that the experiences of setting up and getting the levels right will mean you are able to adapt to the various places.

The basic thing that drives the mix and levels of my band is the drummer. The vocals have to get over the drummer, from there the guitar, keys, bass fit in. Personally, I use a small bass combo with a feed into the main PA. My combo is mainly for my hearing. I also put a bit of it in the monitor mix. I have found that the people in the band need some "education" about the difference between the main mix (ie FOH and what the audience hear) and the monitor mix (ie the foldback what we hear). Of course, there is always the struggle from most people that I need to hear more of me. It is a compromise - and just increasing the monitor levels can mean that the monitor spill will affect the main mix in small venues.[/quote]
Cheers mate.
I need to read up about this stuff. Not having much joy with the search strings i'm trying.

This is the grey area for me, the front mix and monitor mix and how it's all achieved.

[ben604]

Hey Jay,

I'm from just over the water, we play around Liverpool fairly regularly. If you wanted to pop down to one of our gigs, I could show you how we set up while we're loading in. I think we get a pretty decent FOH sound, so our on stage volume is very controlled and tailored to our tastes. Obviously, you can judge for yourself what we sound like!

I'll let you know when we're playing locally if you're interested?

[JayPH]

[quote name='ben604' post='1234045' date='May 17 2011, 10:32 AM']Hey Jay,

I'm from just over the water, we play around Liverpool fairly regularly. If you wanted to pop down to one of our gigs, I could show you how we set up while we're loading in. I think we get a pretty decent FOH sound, so our on stage volume is very controlled and tailored to our tastes. Obviously, you can judge for yourself what we sound like!

I'll let you know when we're playing locally if you're interested?[/quote]
Nice one Ben that's fantastic mate. I'll look forward to it. I'll PM you my number