bassicinstinct Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 My band The Beautiful Sound played at The Railway Inn, Foxhall Road, Ipswich last night. It was the band's second show there and, when the gig was booked, we were offered either a flat fee or 100% of the door takings. Bearing in mind that the gig involved six band members travelling a round trip of well over 300 miles, hence involving an overnight stay, we opted for the flat fee arrangement. On arrival we were informed that we would start the show at 9.00 pm sharp and that on no account must we "play a note" after 11.00 pm due apparently to some noise complaints from neighbouring houses. We subsequently went on stage at 9.00 and played a single set (including three encores) and we left the stage at 10.58 pm. We were then told that we were required to play 15 minutes more. We asked what additional fee would be paid for this and whaty had happened to the 11.00 pm curfew and we were simply told "there'll be no more money". We declined the opportunity to play for a further 15 minutes. When our manager went to get paid after loadout, we were paid the princely sum of £140 (which, incidentally, didn't even equate to the door takings) on the basis that we had no written contract, so there was nothing we could do about it. Ssuffice to say, the audience were almost as incensed as we were and we were apparently not the first band to suffer such mistreatment. I've just driven over 3 hours back from Ipwich and I thought I would let you guys know the situation at this venue without delay. I also intend to email all the bands on their Gig List and let them know so that they won't get stung. If you know of anyone else booked to play there, please let them know too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nig Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I have played the railway before and can add some tales to add yours but wont add fuel to the fire, just concur with the way you found the gig treating you, but, theres always a band waiting to get a gig there, shoddy all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 "Shoddy" wasn't the first word that sprang to my mind Thanks for your comments though. It makes me feel marginally better to hear that it was nothing personal. Ironic really because it was actually a good night from the audience's perspective - just a little hard on the band's collective pocket!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 That sucks... a verbal agreement still counts as a contract... however, they know that it would cost you an arm and a leg to take them to court over this and also they get away with it knowing there's loads of bands desperate to play for virtually nothing... in fact, some bands would even pay for the "privilege"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Man Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I've heard this before a few times about this venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) Man, If my covers band travelled that far for a gig, not only would be be charging double what we normally do for local (london) shows, we'd be asking for a deposit of at least half! Certainly if we had to stay over we'd charge more then double. We've done Weddings in Manchester though and missioned it back to Bucks. Sometimes it is worth dealing in E-Mails so that you have that as written proof as well!. Hope the gig was a good one at least, that's your consolation Si Edited February 18, 2008 by Sibob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I've been there in that situation with a venue in Oxford. Mind you, the consolation was a week after we played, the place was shut down. Shame really because it was a really good venue... but you can't expect to get and keep a good reputation if people are pulling that sort of stunt. I don't what to say really... I guess it's just a case of walking away and hope there is such thing as karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Maybe we should have a forum for rogue venue's. As long as the posters stick to the facts of the matter there sould not be a legal problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) I think it would be a great idea to post a recrord of poor treament at the hands of sh*t bag promoters and dodgy Landlords. If the treatment is really bad The Musicians Union can get involved to recover unpaid fees or to ensure people live up to contracts, written or verbal. NB. to access that service from the MU you must be a member. I've had several cases taken on for me by the union and they have always got me my money by threatening legal action. The thread should IMO be limited to proper breach and NOT personal gripes. (no bad mouthing cos you're pissed off) Edited February 18, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='142352' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:19 AM']I think it would be a great idea to post a recrord of poor treament at the hands of sh*t bag promoters and dodgy Landlords. If the treatment is really bad The Musicians Union can get involved to recover unpaid fees or to ensure people live up to contracts, written or verbal. NB. to access that service from the MU you must be a member. I've had several cases taken on for me by the union and thay have always got me my money by threatening legal action. The thread should IMO be limited to proper breach and NOT personal gripes. (no bad mouthing cos you're pissed off)[/quote] Potentially... but things never quite work out like that... the personal gripes are bound to fly. If it were to happen, I would defo say it's a members forum. Not that it's difficult to get an account here... probably best to keep it from being cached in google though... Anyway, never did see the cash from the Oxford gig... but that didn't annoy me most. I'd paid for a ticket to see Eric Roche and of course, didn't get to see him or get a refund. Ah well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='141941' date='Feb 17 2008, 03:39 PM']When our manager went to get paid after loadout, we were paid the princely sum of £140 (which, incidentally, didn't even equate to the door takings) on the basis that we had no written contract, so there was nothing we could do about it.[/quote] You [u]do not [/u]require a written contract, it is, however, helpful if you can prove to any degree that you are being truthful in the event of any claim being made (Iknow most wouldn't bother) in the small claims court. The most effective way of doing this is to use a diary as a day book to record what was agreed at the time of the bookng, just make a note of the main points when the deal is agreed. It is admissable. In my view we should all come down hard on these sheisters for that sake of all of us. Don't be messed around, it makes them think they can take the piss. Edited February 18, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='142360' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:30 AM']Potentially... but things never quite work out like that... the personal gripes are bound to fly. If it were to happen, I would defo say it's a members forum. Not that it's difficult to get an account here... probably best to keep it from being cached in google though... Anyway, never did see the cash from the Oxford gig... but that didn't annoy me most. I'd paid for a ticket to see Eric Roche and of course, didn't get to see him or get a refund. Ah well.[/quote] Yes point taken. didn't think of it that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='142361' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:30 AM']You [u]do not [/u]require a written contract, it is, however, helpful if you can prove to any degree that you are being truthful in the event of any claim being made (Iknow most wouldn't bother) in the small claims court. The most effective way of doing this is to use a diary as a day book to record what was agreed at the time of the bookng, just make a note of the main points when the deal is agreed. It is admissable. In my view we should all come down hard on these sheisters for that sake of all of us. Don't be messed around, it makes them think they can take the piss.[/quote] I was involved in the legal profession for over 20 years and I could count on one hand the number of [b]successful [/b]actions I saw based on verbal contract so, although you are certainly technically correct (it is the verbal contract which is the agreement - what is written down is merely evidence of that agreement), in practical terms it is a "no brainer" and definitely not worth pursuing - leastways, not down the legal route anyway.LOL Revenge is, of course, a dish best eaten cold and I fully intend to have a veritable feast in due course. Since this happened, someone has set up an email account in the name of our manager and has emailed every venue confirmed on our 2008 Gig List and told them that. as the band has split up, we will be honouring none of the dates. Coincidence? I think bloody not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 [quote name='Sibob' post='142324' date='Feb 18 2008, 10:27 AM']Man, If my covers band travelled that far for a gig, not only would be be charging double what we normally do for local (london) shows, we'd be asking for a deposit of at least half! Certainly if we had to stay over we'd charge more then double. We've done Weddings in Manchester though and missioned it back to Bucks. Sometimes it is worth dealing in E-Mails so that you have that as written proof as well!. Hope the gig was a good one at least, that's your consolation Si[/quote] Ironically, yes, it was an excellent gig (3 encores etc) and the audience, who we kept full inofrmed, were as angry as we were that we had been so grossly underpaid. It wasn't that she couldn't afford to pay us - she had taken ample money on the door to enable her to do so and was charging £3 for a pint of Bitter!!. She merely [b]chose not to[/b] which, in my book, made it infitinitely worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='147159' date='Feb 26 2008, 11:05 AM']Since this happened, someone has set up an email account in the name of our manager and has emailed every venue confirmed on our 2008 Gig List and told them that. as the band has split up, we will be honouring none of the dates. Coincidence? I think bloody not.[/quote] take legal advice NOW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassmurf Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Similar thing happened to some friend's band on sat nite at the Tilgate pub in Crawley, Sussex. They'd played there twice before but this time ther was a new landlady, they did (as before) 2 sets totalling about 50 mins each starting at 9pm thus finishing just after 11pm. 10mins into them packing the drums, amps and guitars away the landlady comes up and says to the singer "what's going on, you're having a laugh - £250 for just over an hour and a halfs playing? That's digusting! I've got alicence till 1am, I was expecting you lot to play till then". The singer replied that £250 was the fee they had been paid the previous two times for the same setlist and all the other local pubs they play didn't seem to mind! Anyway, the whole band went back into said pub after putting the gear away and lo and behold the landlady had conveniently disappeared into the kitchen and they ended up getting paid £200 but they too have been spreading the word around about this pub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3V17C Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 sorry to hear about that. the Railway in Ipswich USED to be a good venue a few years back but unfortunately the current owners do have a bit of a reputation for pulling stunts like this (and worse) - personally we played there once and won't be going back. Was quite funny though when we did play there, because being forwarned about what they were like we went in on the defence and because it was obvious from the outset we wouldn't be taking any cr@p from them they were ok to us. the old landlady now has another pub in Ipswich called the Black Horse which, although small, is a good, friendly venue. peace c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 [quote name='3V17C' post='148488' date='Feb 28 2008, 04:31 PM']sorry to hear about that. the Railway in Ipswich USED to be a good venue a few years back but unfortunately the current owners do have a bit of a reputation for pulling stunts like this (and worse) - personally we played there once and won't be going back. Was quite funny though when we did play there, because being forwarned about what they were like we went in on the defence and because it was obvious from the outset we wouldn't be taking any cr@p from them they were ok to us. the old landlady now has another pub in Ipswich called the Black Horse which, although small, is a good, friendly venue. peace c[/quote] I'd love to hear what "[b]worse[/b]" stunts they've pulled!! That's pretty mind-boggling!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3V17C Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 ok - yeah, perhaps not worse, but definitely on a par. i won't go into details here as i didn't experience any of the problems myself so there is a certain amount of hearsay involved. You can PM me if you like though and i'll tell you the couple of stories i've heard... the thing about someone pretending to be your manager and cancelling gigs etc is well out of order though!! peace c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hit&Run Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='148513' date='Feb 28 2008, 05:15 PM']I'd love to hear what "[b]worse[/b]" stunts they've pulled!! That's pretty mind-boggling!! [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ednaplate Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 [quote name='Paul Cooke' post='141981' date='Feb 17 2008, 05:14 PM']That sucks... a verbal agreement still counts as a contract... however, they know that it would cost you an arm and a leg to take them to court over this and also they get away with it knowing there's loads of bands desperate to play for virtually nothing... in fact, some bands would even pay for the "privilege"...[/quote] Unfortunately in contract law a verbal agreement does NOT amount to a contract in English civil law (although it IS in France should anyone ever gig there) and is therefore unenforceable and you are unlikely to be able to claim compensation. It is a while since I studied contract law in any detail but Im not aware of any changes and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone knows any different. Basically, get it in writing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Precisely my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 (edited) [quote name='ednaplate' post='148573' date='Feb 28 2008, 07:31 PM']Unfortunately in contract law a verbal agreement does NOT amount to a contract in English civil law (although it IS in France should anyone ever gig there) and is therefore unenforceable and you are unlikely to be able to claim compensation. It is a while since I studied contract law in any detail but Im not aware of any changes and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone knows any different. Basically, get it in writing![/quote] Getting it in writing is obviously the thing to do, although I have had experience of getting paid with a threat of legal action where no written agreement existed, and in committee meetings at the musicians union was assured many times by the secretary that written is not necessary. I do not know the detail on the law in this regard but I do know that the small claims court will entertain a case if reasonable evidence is presented (see my earlier post). About four years ago, a band I worked for had a booking for new years eve in a large hotel the fee was £3500. subsequent to booking us, without written confirmation to us or the agent, the organiser (a junior manager) engaged a local band for £1800. Both ourselves and the agent advised her that she should not have done this and we asserted that she ought to pay off the cheaper band and have us (value for money, if you're going to spend it anyway) She told the agent on the phone that as contracts had not been issued that "a verbal agreement is not worth the paper its written on" the agent recorded this and all other conversations in a day book, and told her that we intended to pursue a claim for breach (we [i]had[/i] turned other work down) after several letters and phone calls from the MU, and an assurance from them to us that in the small claims court we would win, the hotel paid up (about 9 months later) so I got my money less expenses (£600) ouch for them, I reckon she probably got sacked. Jake Edited February 28, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbass Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 That is shocking on behalf of the Railway. I used to go there as a punter 6-7 years ago and saw some great bands. Hopefully if every bass player reading this forum alerts their 'booker' the next time the pub name comes up then they'll see the errors of their ways. Maybe... For the record, I drew up a contract a couple of years ago which we post/fax to each venue before we play. The first clause is that regardless of whether they sign/reply etc to the contract, this counts as their terms and conditions. (I have no idea on the legal status of this statement though). Another clause states that cancellations on behalf of the band will always be in writing (to stop them saying "someone called and cancelled"). For the cost of a stamp this at least shows the venues that you are serious, and that if they want to cause problems then there are easier bands to pick on. No problems since we started doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
originalfunster Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 (edited) Did you really see Rats in the kitchen? And how big did you say they were? If I had seen them I would have phoned the environmental health dept straight away! Incidentally the Ipswich environmental number is 01449 727685 Edited March 3, 2008 by originalfunster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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