Theory and Reading Poll

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1241164' date='May 23 2011, 08:28 AM']Reading and theory knowledge are undoubtedly useful skills, but I still maintain being able to play in time and being able to groove are more important.[/quote]
What we have arrived at before in this conversation is that the two are not mutually exclusive. Non readers often seem to suggest that readers are somehow deficient in the groove/time analysis. In my experience this has turned out to be a total fallacy (allowing for the normal parameters of ratio sh*t-sh*t hot players)

Edited May 23, 2011 by jakesbass

[Bilbo]

I often find myself half way through a solo thinking 'hell, whatever else happens, I've got to hit that flattened fifth on the II chord. So, damn the groove'

[davey_one_visits]

I enjoyed viewing the results of this survey. I'm currently trying to learn how to sight read and so far I've been practising about 30 mins (almost) every day for the last 3 months which is both taxing and mind numbing. I've come a long way but I'm still miles off where I need to be to work at a professional level. I wish I'd had a tutor who valued it more when I was younger. My theory is ok but that is something else I am currently improving.

Both have made me more confident in my playing and I find it much easier to communicate with other musicians. Only now can I look back and see how important they are.

[dougal]

+1 for the "can sight read well on upright, playing classical / show tunes and did grade 5 theory but doesn't read nearly so well on electric."

+1 for theory & reading are important but so is groove: I memorise everything for the functions band (most pop / rock songs are repetitive enough, and my interpritation lax enough, to be memorised).

Interestingly I think there are further sub-divisions of "theory", with different empasies (?sp?) on what's important: modes & scales that to a jazz cat are indispensible, are unlikely to turn up in a classical theory exam, whilst writing a Eb melodic minor scale in alto clef using accidentals only is of no practicable use, but you are trained do it for the classical exams.

[Dood]

I too have enjoyed viewing the survey too, but I found that I could have done with a selection in between the choices. I chose:

"I can read a bit and I find it useful & I know some theory and I wish I knew a lot more"

but really wanted to say:

"I can read well and find it very useful" and "I use theory a lot & enjoy learning more as I progress as a musician."

I'm not daft enough to suggest that I was an expert at music theory! ha ha. I certainly believe that as a musician, you never stop learning.I mean, I have an excellent understanding for the level I am at - but it may pale in comparison to some of you guys on here who really know your sh*t!!

A really good thread!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1241407' date='May 23 2011, 12:08 PM']But,if you play a B over a C7 chord,it doesn't matter how in time you are-it'll sound bad.[/quote]
Actually no.

Firstly it's entirely subjective.

Secondly it will depend on whole load of other factors including how long the B the lasts in relation to the C7 chord and how many octaves the B is from the C and Bb in the chord, what the timbres of the instruments playing the C, Bb and B notes are.

Theory will only get you so far. Your ears have to do the rest.

[Dood]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1241407' date='May 23 2011, 12:08 PM']But,if you play a B over a C7 chord ... -it'll sound bad.[/quote]

Unless it's 'Djent' - and then it's a beautiful noise!

[Dood]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1241471' date='May 23 2011, 12:36 PM']Actually no.

Firstly it's entirely subjective.

Secondly it will depend on whole load of other factors including how long the B the lasts in relation to the C7 chord and how many octaves the B is from the C and Bb in the chord, what the timbres of the instruments playing the C, Bb and B notes are.

Theory will only get you so far. Your ears have to do the rest.[/quote]


Heh! Made my post redundant - I like your description better! lol!

[Doddy]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1241471' date='May 23 2011, 12:36 PM']Actually no.

Firstly it's entirely subjective.

Secondly it will depend on whole load of other factors including how long the B the lasts in relation to the C7 chord and how many octaves the B is from the C and Bb in the chord, what the timbres of the instruments playing the C, Bb and B notes are.

Theory will only get you so far. Your ears have to do the rest.[/quote]

If we are talking about chord tones-which I am-it is a 'wrong' note. I'm not talking about using it as a
chromatic passing tone. In that case,the timbre and octave don't matter-it would be a 'wrong' note,and that
is not subjective.
My point is that playing 'the groove' and in time alone won't do you any good if you don't know what notes
work.

What's 'Djent'?

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1241533' date='May 23 2011, 01:12 PM']What's 'Djent'?[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djent"]It's onomatopoeia.[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1241533' date='May 23 2011, 01:12 PM']If we are talking about chord tones-which I am-it is a 'wrong' note. I'm not talking about using it as a
chromatic passing tone. In that case,the timbre and octave don't matter-it would be a 'wrong' note,and that
is not subjective.
My point is that playing 'the groove' and in time alone won't do you any good if you don't know what notes
work.[/quote]
I think ALL music is subjective. It's context that matters, and all the other things that BRX mentions with regard to what is technically correct or otherwise. Bending that 'wrong' note into the 'right' note is one of the most effective thing a musician can do.

Also, I would assume that most people would know if it was wrong and not play it, after all, the fact that it is 'wrong' derives from the ears, not the theory and western ears are fairly capable of deciding consonance from dissonance.

There are a whole lot of 'wrong notes' in western music that are 'right notes' in Arabic and Indian music, and indeed flamenco singers evoke the pain of the gypsies by singing a whole raft of 'wrong notes' over the accompaniment, listen and you will understand. Like how Indian raags clearly evoke moods and times of day through the raag's melody structures and use of quarter tones, something that is incredibly difficult for many westerners to accept are 'right' but which are evocative nonetheless.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='1241599' date='May 23 2011, 01:53 PM']I think ALL music is subjective. It's context that matters, and all the other things that BRX mentions with regard to what is technically correct or otherwise. Bending that 'wrong' note into the 'right' note is one of the most effective thing a musician can do.

Also, I would assume that most people would know if it was wrong and not play it, after all, the fact that it is 'wrong' derives from the ears, not the theory and western ears are fairly capable of deciding consonance from dissonance.

There are a whole lot of 'wrong notes' in western music that are 'right notes' in Arabic and Indian music, and indeed flamenco singers evoke the pain of the gypsies by singing a whole raft of 'wrong notes' over the accompaniment, listen and you will understand. Like how Indian raags clearly evoke moods and times of day through the raag's melody structures and use of quarter tones, something that is incredibly difficult for many westerners to accept are 'right' but which are evocative nonetheless.[/quote]

All completely true, sil. However, having spent several years trying (and mostly failing) to get anyone on here to think past mainstream pop and rock and to listen to something else only midly challenging, in my case Jazz, I am fairly confident when I say that 99% of the people on here would probably be better off not playing a B over a C7 chord. Those that are exploring non-Occidental musics and raga melodies on their Fender Jazz can go to the forums on www.theyremakingthisupastheygoalong.com

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1241626' date='May 23 2011, 02:13 PM']All completely true, sil. However, having spent several years trying (and mostly failing) to get anyone on here to think past mainstream pop and rock and to listen to something else only midly challenging, in my case Jazz, I am fairly confident when I say that 99% of the people on here would probably be better off not playing a B over a C7 chord. Those that are exploring non-Occidental musics and raga melodies on their Fender Jazz can go to the forums on www.theyremakingthisupastheygoalong.com [/quote]
Brilliant post Bil

Thing is, it's about what is relevant to the music you enjoy playing, and listening to. I love pop and rock, and some choral and orchestral music, and real flamenco, north Indian classical, Arabic pop and classical. And Zappa. I find almost all jazz I have heard insufferable. And although I am fairly confident that if you give me an 'out there' piece of music I would be able to compose an interesting and complimentary bassline, you are right in that I would be using my ears and experience and no theory as such.

BUT, I think you final website reference misses the point in some ways. It is true that all one has to do for most western ears is play phrygian and people say it sounds Arabic or Indian. But learning Indian classical is many lifetimes's study. But Jazz, so many RULES! And yet the goal is to improvise, often over simple repetitive motifs. Jazz truly seems to be inward looking and self serving now, it has evolved in the same way football has, music for the people seems to have turned into music for the musicians.

To me, the music comes first, then the theory. To do it the other way around is abstract in the extreme and I think that is why many people find it daunting and confusing, and unmusical. You must teach the musician to listen and develop taste and opinion and the theory is there to facilitate understanding, and an aid to exploring further musical possibilities. You can't write compelling music from a theoretical point of view, you must hear it in your head first, or be able to relate the theory to sounds, moods, whatever. Otherwise it's just maths and music is (or should be) a mode of human expression. That's my thinking anyway.

[Marvin]

With regards to listening to 'challenging jazz', I've enough misery in my life without putting myself at the mercy of music that in the main makes my ears want to drop off.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1241626' date='May 23 2011, 02:13 PM']However, having spent several years trying (and mostly failing) to get anyone on here to think past mainstream pop and rock and to listen to something else only midly challenging...[/quote]
Wow... why could that be? Are BC'ers really that simplistic and unadventurous?

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1241626' date='May 23 2011, 02:13 PM']...in my case Jazz[/quote]

Edited May 23, 2011 by wateroftyne

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1241690' date='May 23 2011, 02:56 PM']Wow... why could that be? Are BC'ers really that simplistic and unadventurous?[/quote]

I refuse to comment on grounds that I might incriminate myself.

[lojo]

My view is now fixed on that I don't know much and wish I knew everything theory and reading wise, but I now dont have the time to learn it or at least believe that the time I'd spend would be better spent elsewhere, fortunately that still leaves me able to enjoy playing in covers bands, technically I maybe a faker or not a real musician, but I earned back £97 towards my gear this weekend engaging in hobby I'd shell out for with no chance of recovering it

If i had my time again , I'd learn properly

[Marvin]

[quote name='lojo' post='1241967' date='May 23 2011, 06:08 PM']My view is now fixed on that I don't know much and wish I knew everything theory and reading wise, but I now dont have the time to learn it or at least believe that the time I'd spend would be better spent elsewhere, fortunately that still leaves me able to enjoy playing in covers bands, technically I maybe a faker or not a real musician, but I earned back £97 towards my gear this weekend engaging in hobby I'd shell out for with no chance of recovering it

If i had my time again , I'd learn properly[/quote]
I should imagine this covers quite a few of us on BC, it certainly includes me, apart from the earning £97 this weekend

In total agreement with you.

[RhysP]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='1240844' date='May 22 2011, 09:16 PM']Problem is I've not really got any major need to read except for my own interest.[/quote]
I can't think of a better reason for doing anything.

Learning to read & getting my theory knowledge up to a decent level is something I've wanted to do for decades, all that has stopped me is my own innate laziness.

Even though I'm at a stage now where there's less of a practical reason for learning it than I've ever had I'm going back to school in the autumn to start formally taking my theory grades.

Edited May 23, 2011 by RhysP

[LemonCello]

[quote name='Ed_S' post='1240980' date='May 22 2011, 10:43 PM']I got up to grade 7ish (playing) as an orchestral violinist before ditching it and taking up bass. I say 'ish' because I never took any of the exams beyond grade 4 due to my complete hatred of theory, so my yard-stick was just being able to play the higher exam pieces. I could sight-read very well back then, but it only ever made any sense in direct relation to the fingering for a violin, so as soon as I stopped, that was the end of it. These days I have no idea what I'm playing on bass, but the classical training tuned my ear in to such a degree that I really don't feel that I need to; I can hear what's right, what fits, where a progression is going and what my options are for the next note to jump to, and that works just fine for me [/quote]

As a classically trained 'Cellist +1 to that. Cello/Bass doesn't translate from a fingering point of view because they are tuned differently. Being able to sight read is however useful if you want to do certain paid stuff. Theater stuff springs to mind. Other than that, If your in a band and gigging your set then there's no need to worry. Plenty of resource available like TAB and You Tube. Oh and Bass Chat of course!

I know Dood won't like the above however!!!

LC

[Dood]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1241626' date='May 23 2011, 02:13 PM']However, having spent several years trying (and mostly failing) to get anyone on here to think past mainstream pop and rock and to listen to something else only midly challenging, in my case Jazz, I am fairly confident when I say that 99% of the people on here would probably be better off not playing a B over a C7 chord.[/quote]


I realise the tongue is fairly well embedded in the cheek there, but I wonder if suggesting that 99% of the readership stay away from taking on 'B over C7' may be doing yourself a disservice. Maybe underestimating the ability of those who might know why something doesn't sound right, even if they don't understand the theory behind it.

As for getting people listening to Jazz, actually I reckon you've done a pretty good job of suggesting some great artists - I don't expect for a second people go running off to listen to my playlists when I suggest them, but hey, it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

[Dood]

[quote name='LemonCello' post='1241990' date='May 23 2011, 06:26 PM']As a classically trained 'Cellist +1 to that. Cello/Bass doesn't translate from a fingering point of view because they are tuned differently. Being able to sight read is however useful if you want to do certain paid stuff. Theater stuff springs to mind. Other than that, If your in a band and gigging your set then there's no need to worry. Plenty of resource available like TAB and You Tube. Oh and Bass Chat of course!

I know Dood won't like the above however!!!

LC[/quote]

Heh heh!! Funny you should mention Cello - it's an instrument that has always interested me from a distance. I love it's timbre and the range that it covers. Maybe that's why I like wandering up the neck of my basses a bit as well as the low LOWS!

[risingson]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1241626' date='May 23 2011, 02:13 PM']All completely true, sil. However, having spent several years trying (and mostly failing) to get anyone on here to think past mainstream pop and rock and to listen to something else only midly challenging, in my case Jazz[/quote]

With the greatest respect, maybe most people aren't okay with being told to listen to something else because their own tastes reflect the unchallenging and mundane. I don't see why I'd take on a recommendation on music based on this assumption.

A lot of the music that will stand the test of time is simplistic in nature. For example, Pat Metheny may have challenged the perceptions of jazz, but you can be certain that it you'll never catch me humming a melody of his because for many people it lacks appeal and isn't memorable. Name any number of Beatles tunes on the other hand and you'll probably hear me humming them on a daily basis, not because I listen to the Beatles a lot, but because the music has stuck with me. Some people thrive off instant gratification, not everyone wants the food for thought. Challenge people's perceptions by all means, but remember not everyone will have the same level of affinity for jazz as you do sometimes.

[Pete Academy]

I have nothing against people who read and know theory. As I've mentioned in previous posts regarding this subject, I've lost many gigs due to not having these skills. And I certainly don't think people who have this knowledge are deficient in being able to groove. That would be a stupid statement.

My main opinion is that a mainstream listening audience at a gig will mainly get off on the music being tight and in the pocket, even if it's one root note being played.

If I get asked to do a gig I don't think I could handle, I always put Doddy forward, as I know he could busk it, if needed.

[Wil]

I can read bass/treble clef, sight read for cello and trumpet (and piano to a degree), but can't sight read for bass. I've recently learned the fretboard up to the 5th fret but after trading my iPhone and losing the Bass Clef app I've lost interest a bit, without a teacher I struggle to find the motivation to stick with any kind of structured practice. At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that what I enjoy most as a bassplayer is locking in with a drummer, either playing music I've composed in my head or writing to compliment original music my bandmates have composed. I don't really need or want to push any boundaries.