Theory and Reading Poll

[dc2009]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1243240' date='May 24 2011, 06:38 PM']Get a fiver

And how could you number all the notes with at least 80 choices even on a 4 string? If they had what would you of called B string notes, Minus numbers? All other methods including tab limit you to that instrument as you say you now know what a 3 on the second string is or whatever but if you can read an F is an F and all you need to do now is learn where the notes are on the instrument of choice rather than it's equivalent sort of tab just for that instrument.[/quote]

I meant numerically per string, as tab does now? :s

[skej21]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1243530' date='May 24 2011, 09:48 PM']I meant numerically per string, as tab does now? :s[/quote]

I think the point is that if you know what an "F" is on a treble/bass clef, then you just need to find where the notes are on a new instrument. Reading the rhythms/notes/music will be the same process.

However, your idea of tab would mean that you had to not only learn a new tab for a new instrument, but also learn where the numbers were. For example, piano tab would be completely different to violin tab which would be completely different to clarinet tab etc etc etc.

That's all before you have to work out the rhythms, because tabs don't usually tell you that either.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1243515' date='May 24 2011, 09:39 PM']I and others have said many times, reading and understanding theory are not hard and can be enormously empowering. Noone is being elitist about it. Anyone near me wants a hand with either aspect of their craft, get in touch and I'll get you going in the right direction.[/quote]

That's a great offer. But I wouldn't say music theory as an academic discipline isn't hard. I guess it depends how far you take it, if we're talking the basics of formal harmony that's fine but look at the myriad alternative analyses of something like Giant Steps - at that level it turns into a philosophical debate about harmonic perception and it's not easy going at all!

Out of interest, how do dyslexics cope with reading music generally? My wife, who is dyslexic, really struggled with it despite not being in the least bit work-shy. If it's the same as the written word she would never be able to do it to a level where she could sight-read fluently.

I know I must seem way out on a tangent in this debate, but I think if we're generalising it's an important one and an interesting one too. In my family we are very uneven, some of us very highly academic and others with various degrees of learning difficulties. It's fascinating to me just how differently we approach understanding something like music, and I have an obvious interest in understanding the science of learning itself. It frustrates me then when people make general pronouncements about these kind of things without a full appreciation of the process of learning in different individuals. An expert teacher is not the same thing as an expert practitioner.

Maybe I'm the only person here who finds the neurological/conceptual questions of how we learn music, the common elements and the specific differences between individuals, interesting. In which case I'd better shut up I guess!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='silddx' post='1243510' date='May 24 2011, 09:36 PM']Theory is undoubtedly very, very useful. To learn the aspects of theory you require, ideally you need to read standard notation. Theory can only do so much though, and there are many different applications for it, depending on your musical role.

Theory is not a panacea, nor is technical facility, nor is compositional study. But we are often told they are, and that we should learn it all. To truly make use of these tools, you need to know your musical role and decide the tools' subsets you need for your role, and understand how they can help you achieve your musical goals.

The trouble with a lot of teaching methods, I think, is that they are taught to a syllabus that takes little account of the students' needs, or indeed even attempt to teach the student how to understand and decide what they might need and what they feel they want to achieve as a musician. All musicians are different and need different things from the academic side of music. I feel sure it's not as difficult to learn as those of us without the language are often made to feel it is.[/quote]

This is where it all goes wrong for me and I think as someone sort of in the middle who has made the decision to learn more reading and theory how does anyone know what they do and dont need to know? And for me in all walks of life Im not the sort of person that can say that's enough I don't need to know any more.

I'm 100% converted and now know I was being lazy before which in turn has made it harder for me to learn later in my playing life, I have done alright but I'm sure I could of done more if I had started earlier. My more I'm talking on all levels, Writing , Performing, More gigs, Better gigs and everything involved with playing as a bass player. It doesn't matter how many have said the same as I just have some people don't want to accept that there might be some truth in it.

Tbh I love these threads because my new found thirst for knowledge started from one just like it with me defending my ear playing and theory hindering me, 20 years playing and never kicked out of a band etc. If you don't have a look over the fence you will never know if the grass is greener or not IMO.

See this is where I fall down, I can try and preach to the no believers but I can't actually do the business, My mind is made up but my brain is lagging behind I'm going to do some reading right now!

Edited May 24, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

Quick apology for my posts being even worse than normal my iPod is deciding what it thinks I want! Also I can't workout how to make a box of text scroll up and down to go back and edit

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1243530' date='May 24 2011, 09:48 PM']I meant numerically per string, as tab does now? :s[/quote]
Like 1-1 1-12 2-12 2-5 etc looks harder than notation to me

[xilddx]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1243575' date='May 24 2011, 10:15 PM']This is where it all goes wrong for me and I think as someone sort of in the middle who has made the decision to learn more reading and theory how does anyone know what they do and dont need to know? And for me in all walks of life Im not the sort of person that can say that's enough I don't need to know any more.

I'm 100% converted and now know I was being lazy before which in turn has made it harder for me to learn later in my playing life, I have done alright but I'm sure I could of done more if I had started earlier. My more I'm talking on all levels, Writing , Performing, More gigs, Better gigs and everything involved with playing as a bass player. It doesn't matter how many have said the same as I just have some people don't want to accept that there might be some truth in it.

Tbh I love these threads because my new found thirst for knowledge started from one just like it with me defending my ear playing and theory hindering me, 20 years playing and never kicked out of a band etc. If you don't have a look over the fence you will never know if the grass is greener or not IMO.

See this is where I fall down, I can try and preach to the no believers but I can't actually do the business, My mind is made up but my brain is lagging behind I'm going to do some reading right now![/quote]
I think this is where a really good teacher can help enormously. The lesson I had with Jake was mostly talking, and for half an hour at the end we went through some stuff on the bass, then he gave me some simple things to learn, but which also demonstrated the endless possibilities. It was very useful in getting me to understand what I felt about learning theory and reading, and which aspects might be useful. I'll be honest, I wish I was brilliant at both but I think a lot of it for me is vanity. I'm not sure the sort of music I play, and that I my perceived dislike of a musical life like Doddy's, merits very much more study, but then maybe it does

[xgsjx]

I'm with the majority on this one.


Voting wise that is! I've never read all the pages, but I will when I get to work if time.

[dc2009]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1243593' date='May 24 2011, 10:31 PM']Like 1-1 1-12 2-12 2-5 etc looks harder than notation to me [/quote]

and vice versa for me

[ras52]

Am I the only one who can read standard notation but is perplexed by tab - largely because most of the examples I've seen give no indication of rhythm?

[lojo]

[quote name='silddx' post='1243829' date='May 25 2011, 08:13 AM']I think this is where a really good teacher can help enormously. The lesson I had with Jake was mostly talking, and for half an hour at the end we went through some stuff on the bass, then he gave me some simple things to learn, but which also demonstrated the endless possibilities. It was very useful in getting me to understand what I felt about learning theory and reading, and which aspects might be useful. I'll be honest, I wish I was brilliant at both but I think a lot of it for me is vanity. I'm not sure the sort of music I play, and that I my perceived dislike of a musical life like Doddy's, merits very much more study, but then maybe it does [/quote]


I had a lesson with Jake, what a fantastic and knowledgeable guy

Not sure if he intended to, but I left feeling confident with my playing abilities (for what I do at least) but with some right hand tips to improve speed, and a big decision about learning to read or not

Circumstance has since dictated that I wont put the time into learning, and that leaves me doing exactly what I do already, which I am quite happy with

If I did find the time and desire to make learning a priority, Id be booking with Jake

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1243593' date='May 24 2011, 10:31 PM']Like 1-1 1-12 2-12 2-5 etc looks harder than notation to me [/quote]

Looks like Binary to me (almost) maybe we could read the binary code that makes up the image of the tab/dots on the screen?

[ZMech]

If you don't like using a set of symbols to represent notes, you could aways use their frequency, in theory this would be the most logical, but bloody annoying method.

Can anyone tell me off the top of their head the minor 7th of a 110Hz?

Edited May 25, 2011 by ZMech

[xilddx]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1244175' date='May 25 2011, 12:59 PM']If you don't like using a set of symbols to represent notes, you could aways use their frequency, in theory this would be the most logical, but bloody annoying method.

Can anyone tell me off the top of their head the minor 7th of a 110Hz?[/quote]

E By Gum

[RhysP]

I'd love to hear some of the incredibly original & groundbreaking music that is being made by all these people on here who have cast off the shackles of conventional music theory & embraced raw naked atonal creativity.......

[dc2009]

[quote name='ras52' post='1244142' date='May 25 2011, 12:29 PM']Am I the only one who can read standard notation but is perplexed by tab - largely because most of the examples I've seen give no indication of rhythm?[/quote]

Typically you go to a tab for a song you already have heard, so the tab only needs to give you the notes as you largely know or can get the rhythm. I use guitar pro/powertab, where you have both score and tab, and I use the tab for the notes, and the score for the rhythm.

@ZMech, I see the idea, though it could be made to work if you had a frequency system based around the semitones we used today, i.e. one semitone is 100 dc2009's (the unit, obviously ) above the previous one.
The current system of Hz relies on the 12th root of 2 to relate notes, does it not? Cos that is distinctly impractical.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1244198' date='May 25 2011, 01:14 PM']I'd love to hear some of the incredibly original & groundbreaking music that is being made by all these people on here who have cast off the shackles of conventional music theory & embraced raw naked atonal creativity.......
[/quote]

Having spent 15 minutes last night trying to make a B root fit a C7 chord and not sound like a train wreck, I would too

I'm with Doddy. Its wrong.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1244417' date='May 25 2011, 03:59 PM']Having spent 15 minutes last night trying to make a B root fit a C7 chord and not sound like a train wreck, I would too

I'm with Doddy. Its wrong. [/quote]


What..!! you could not make a B sus add maj 7 [-9][#5] work ?

Try harder.



Garry

Edited May 25, 2011 by lowdown

[xilddx]

I'm not really sure what this poll is telling me

[stingrayPete1977]

I have had a good couple of reading/theory practices this weekend as my only gig was Friday night and it has rained almost non stop. I'm not sure what the poll meens either

[ZMech]

[quote name='silddx' post='1250472' date='May 30 2011, 04:53 PM']I'm not really sure what this poll is telling me [/quote]
it's telling you that whilst the numbers show about half of BC wish they knew more theory, and a bunch of those that don't reckon they know loads, there are still people who will argue it's not at all needed

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1250779' date='May 30 2011, 08:54 PM']it's telling you that whilst the numbers show about half of BC wish they knew more theory, and a bunch of those that don't reckon they know loads, there are still people who will argue it's not at all needed [/quote]
That sounds about right.

A solid 20% had an 'excellent' knowledge of theory and didn't feel they needed more (some used it some didn't).

The majority (58.1%) knew 'very little' or 'some' theory but wanted to know a lot more.

15% knew 'some' theory but didn't feel a need to know more, so, presumably they were happy.

Only 5.7% knew 'very little' or 'none' and were happy with that situation.

Edited May 30, 2011 by EssentialTension

[lanark]

You need an extra category for:

"I can sight read fluently - but only for piano! On the fretboard I get lost."

This is the situation I'm in. After playing piano for 20 years, I know that that's an F#, but it takes me a second or two to remember where that would be on the fretboard.

Edited May 31, 2011 by lanark

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='lanark' post='1251188' date='May 31 2011, 10:38 AM']You need an extra category for:

"I can sight read fluently - but only for piano! On the fretboard I get lost."

This is the situation I'm in. After playing piano for 20 years, I know that that's an F#, but it takes me a second or two to remember where that would be on the fretboard.[/quote]
Get the Frodis bass Clef App and spend any spare time on the fret board trainer it is really very good