BassoRidiculoso Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Basso Ridiculoso and the factory of underpaid software monkeys is proud to annouce a handy little web thing for creating combinations of any four notes you want. [b] The Bergonzifying Transmogrifier[/b] is a free web application that generates all the possible combinations of any four musical notes that you choose and then notates and creates an MP3 file of the combinations. It "Transmogrifies" the set of four notes you choose, similar to a method outlined by the saxophonist Jerry Bergonzi in his "Inside Improvisation" series of method books. Check it out here: [b][size=4][center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/"]http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/[/url][/center] [/size][/b] You can read all the details on ways to use it here as well at the ol' bass blog: [size=4] [center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/05/announcing-bergonzifying-transmogrifier.html"]http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/0...smogrifier.html[/url][/center][/size] __________________ [url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com"]bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com[/url] • [url="http://twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso"]twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Very cool utility! Favourited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleblob Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Just to let you know this worked in Firefox but didn't seem to wanna work in IE 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I'm sure some people will find this software most interesting. But there is a great little alternative - its called "The Human Brain" ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassoRidiculoso Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='purpleblob' post='1243610' date='May 24 2011, 02:44 PM']Just to let you know this worked in Firefox but didn't seem to wanna work in IE 8.[/quote] Thanks, I don't run IE, and am on a Mac so I will look around and try and find a machine to debug it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassoRidiculoso Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='1243856' date='May 25 2011, 12:36 AM']I'm sure some people will find this software most interesting. But there is a great little alternative - its called "The Human Brain" ........[/quote] Computers are very good at doing repetitive tasks, of which there is very little redeeming value for a human to waste their time doing. Running a repeating matrix pattern over and over and over requires no special human intelligence. Its just paperwork. Understanding how to do it is valuable, but sitting down and wasting an hour doing it once you understand how to is pointless, when you could instead be working on the important part - making music. Now, what humans ARE really good at and what computers are not is finding the musical phrases within the generated patterns and applying them in an interesting, creative, unique way. This splits the task between what the computer is good at and what the human is good at. Feel free to keep using your quill pen, that is if you don't have to turn off your oil lamp, hitch up your horse to your buggy and go on down to the train station to send a telegram to someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='BassoRidiculoso' post='1243864' date='May 25 2011, 08:47 AM']Computers are very good at doing repetitive tasks, of which there is very little redeeming value for a human to waste their time doing. Running a repeating matrix pattern over and over and over requires no special human intelligence. Its just paperwork. Understanding how to do it is valuable, but sitting down and wasting an hour doing it once you understand how to is pointless, when you could instead be working on the important part - making music. Now, what humans ARE really good at and what computers are not is finding the musical phrases within the generated patterns and applying them in an interesting, creative, unique way. This splits the task between what the computer is good at and what the human is good at. Feel free to keep using your quill pen, that is if you don't have to turn off your oil lamp, hitch up your horse to your buggy and go on down to the train station to send a telegram to someone.[/quote] mmm maybe I've misunderstood what you would use this pattern generating software for. But as a composer, arranger, improviser, producer and working bass player, I (and many like me) have to create "note patterns" in a musically useful and emotionally stimulating way. I use computers (and samples/sequencers) extensively to help me get notes on the page, or audio into the mix, and I love the fact that I no longer have to use that quill pen under an oil lamp light and that I can send my finished mixes or scores to my publisher via the internet, and can communicate with the world outside my studio without having to send a telegram . But any musical ideas I have come entirely from within my brain (small as it maybe !) and I'm glad I can string notes together and use my musical judgement to decide whether they work as a musical phrase / harmony / counterpoint etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='BassoRidiculoso' post='1243287' date='May 24 2011, 07:07 PM']Basso Ridiculoso and the factory of underpaid software monkeys is proud to annouce a handy little web thing for creating combinations of any four notes you want. [b] The Bergonzifying Transmogrifier[/b] is a free web application that generates all the possible combinations of any four musical notes that you choose and then notates and creates an MP3 file of the combinations. It "Transmogrifies" the set of four notes you choose, similar to a method outlined by the saxophonist Jerry Bergonzi in his "Inside Improvisation" series of method books. Check it out here: [b][size=4][center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/"]http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/[/url][/center] [/size][/b] You can read all the details on ways to use it here as well at the ol' bass blog: [size=4] [center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/05/announcing-bergonzifying-transmogrifier.html"]http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/0...smogrifier.html[/url][/center][/size] __________________ [url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com"]bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com[/url] • [url="http://twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso"]twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso[/url][/quote] Err, it seems utterly pointless to me. Would someone kindly explain what I'm missing here please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1244200' date='May 25 2011, 01:18 PM']Err, it seems utterly pointless to me. Would someone kindly explain what I'm missing here please.[/quote] I'm struggling with it, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1244200' date='May 25 2011, 01:18 PM']Err, it seems utterly pointless to me. Would someone kindly explain what I'm missing here please.[/quote] Its basically just showing the various permutations of any 4 note pattern. In the same way that you might practice an arpeggio starting on the 3rd or 5th or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaypup Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1244200' date='May 25 2011, 01:18 PM']Err, it seems utterly pointless to me. Would someone kindly explain what I'm missing here please.[/quote] Fun? A sense of the ridiculous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassoRidiculoso Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Here is some more info on the backgound - [url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/01/daily-licking-005-every-possible-way-to.html"]http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/0...ble-way-to.html[/url] The concept is based on books by guys like (of course) Jerry Bergonzi, Wayne Krantz, Gary Campbell, Ramon Richter and a bunch of others who have been using stuff like this for saxophone and other instruments for years to figure out patterns and find lines to play over chords. It is simply a way to generate all the possible ways to play any four notes, they don't have to be chord tones, it can be any four notes you want. You may find some melodic phrases or a pattern you haven't used before. Check out any of the Bergonzi books especially, he goes through it step by step. He is applying it in ways to find solo material but the idea can be used for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BassoRidiculoso' post='1244451' date='May 25 2011, 04:32 PM']Here is some more info on the backgound - [url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/01/daily-licking-005-every-possible-way-to.html"]http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/0...ble-way-to.html[/url] The concept is based on books by guys like (of course) Jerry Bergonzi, Wayne Krantz, Gary Campbell, Ramon Richter and a bunch of others who have been using stuff like this for saxophone and other instruments for years to figure out patterns and find lines to play over chords. It is simply a way to generate all the possible ways to play any four notes, they don't have to be chord tones, it can be any four notes you want. You may find some melodic phrases or a pattern you haven't used before. Check out any of the Bergonzi books especially, he goes through it step by step. He is applying it in ways to find solo material but the idea can be used for anything.[/quote] Mmm, forgive me, but the way you describe it makes it sound like it is a single note phrase generation tool for people who have no musical imagination or, for people who simply can't express themselves with a musical instrument, or for people who can't tell what gives them a buzz or can't create something that gives them a buzz. Take four notes, sit down and play them any way you want, I don't need a computer in front of me to tell me how to do that do I? Are you telling me Wayne Krantz needs a web application to create guitar phrases that interest him? I don't believe you! Sorry if this sounds harsh. [quote name='Doddy' post='1244210' date='May 25 2011, 01:29 PM']Its basically just showing the various permutations of any 4 note pattern. In the same way that you might practice an arpeggio starting on the 3rd or 5th or whatever.[/quote] Great I know exactly what it is, I just don't understand why it is necessary or what problem it is solving. Edited May 25, 2011 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1244515' date='May 25 2011, 05:17 PM']Great I know exactly what it is, I just don't understand why it is necessary or what problem it is solving.[/quote] I think it's for people who can't be arsed to work out the various permutations on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassoRidiculoso Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) Whatever. Go read Krantz's book, (which, clearly, you haven't or you would know this is *exactly* how he comes up with stuff, I could have called it the Krantzifier.) "[url="http://www.waynekrantz.com/newWebsite/IOSinfo.html"]An Improvisors OS[/url]". He discusses making patterns like this in detail. As do the other world class players listed in each of their respective publications. Just because you don't understand the validity of it hardly means it is not valid. Krantz may sit down with a pencil to do it, but he does it in a very structured manner like this at some point, that's the entire point of his book, creating, finding and running permutations. What we all hear him play is what comes from this process after he has mined that data and found cool stuff he liked and worked it up, turned it around, etc. Go read Krantz's book, that will answer if he uses a method like this or not. (spoiler - uh, he does). If you use a pencil or a computer to generate the base material is irrelevant. There are literally thousands of composers that have sat down and run permutations of phrases or groups of notes in some fashion like this. It is an extremely common practice. Hello, Slonimsky and Coltrane? When Krantz is talking about patterns limiting your playing on his site, he means the finger shapes we all learn to get around the neck of the guitar/bass. The way of breaking out of those physical finger patterns is to find new and different ways to play groups of notes, hence, generating permutations of different crazy groups to find things to play that your fingers would never fall onto if you just played box shapes and other guitaristic patterns. All that is different is that we live in an era where a machine can do the grunt work for us now, and we can spend our time, more productively, on applying the results instead of repetitively generating them. For four notes it is not that hard, but it does take a few minutes to do each one by hand. But for 5 and 6 note combinations it gets extremely time consuming because each one has 120 and 720 different combinations of 5 and 6 notes respectively. That is a pain in the butt to do by hand. Edited May 25, 2011 by BassoRidiculoso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='BassoRidiculoso' post='1244639' date='May 25 2011, 07:14 PM']Whatever. Go read Krantz's book, (which, clearly, you haven't or you would know this is *exactly* how he comes up with stuff, I could have called it the Krantzifier.) "[url="http://www.waynekrantz.com/newWebsite/IOSinfo.html"]An Improvisors OS[/url]". He discusses making patterns like this in detail. As do the other world class players listed in each of their respective publications. Just because you don't understand the validity of it hardly means it is not valid. Krantz may sit down with a pencil to do it, but he does it in a very structured manner like this at some point, that's the entire point of his book, creating, finding and running permutations. What we all hear him play is what comes from this process after he has mined that data and found cool stuff he liked and worked it up, turned it around, etc. Go read Krantz's book, that will answer if he uses a method like this or not. (spoiler - uh, he does). If you use a pencil or a computer to generate the base material is irrelevant. There are literally thousands of composers that have sat down and run permutations of phrases or groups of notes in some fashion like this. It is an extremely common practice. Hello, Slonimsky and Coletrane? All that is different is that we live in an era where a machine can do the grunt work for us now, and we can spend our time, more productively, on applying the results instead of repetitively generating them. For four notes it is not that hard, but it does take a few minutes to do each one by hand. But for 5 and 6 note combinations it gets extremely time consuming because each one has 120 and 720 different combinations of 5 and 6 notes respectively. That is a pain in the butt to do by hand.[/quote] Whatever? How old are you? Are you going to tell me to talk to your hand in a minute? That's all fair comment my friend, I just don't understand what the point is of all these permutations. Why would I want a computer programme to show me 720 permutations, then sift through them all over every permutation of every possible underlying chord structure? Maybe I'm a dumb sh*t or something. Are you into Kraftwerk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I still don't get it. I guess it's just not fer me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassoRidiculoso Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1244655' date='May 25 2011, 11:25 AM']Why would I want a computer programme to show me 720 permutations, then sift through them all over every permutation of every possible underlying chord structure?[/quote] You will realize to the answer to that one eventually, all on your own. It's the same reason Krantz/Bergonzi/Slonimsky all wrote their books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='1244665' date='May 25 2011, 07:31 PM']I still don't get it. I guess it's just not fer me...[/quote] Well what I'm thinking is, if you chuck me all the 720 permutations of tomato, garlic, mozzarella, basil, olive oil and dough, only a few of them will end up as a tasty pizza, and I know what they are already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BassoRidiculoso' post='1243287' date='May 24 2011, 07:07 PM']Basso Ridiculoso and the factory of underpaid software monkeys is proud to annouce a handy little web thing for creating combinations of any four notes you want. [b] The Bergonzifying Transmogrifier[/b] is a free web application that generates all the possible combinations of any four musical notes that you choose and then notates and creates an MP3 file of the combinations. It "Transmogrifies" the set of four notes you choose, similar to a method outlined by the saxophonist Jerry Bergonzi in his "Inside Improvisation" series of method books. Check it out here: [b][size=4][center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/"]http://bassoridiculoso.net16.net/[/url][/center] [/size][/b] You can read all the details on ways to use it here as well at the ol' bass blog: [size=4] [center][url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/05/announcing-bergonzifying-transmogrifier.html"]http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/2011/0...smogrifier.html[/url][/center][/size] __________________ [url="http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com"]bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com[/url] • [url="http://twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso"]twitter.com/#!/BassoRidiculoso[/url][/quote] I would find it very interesting if you took it a major 7th further and incorporated it into an Arpeggiator within a DAW. To generate a series of notes on the fly like that would/could be useful. Garry. Edited May 26, 2011 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I think this is a very useful tool. Even just using the given examples of chord tones over a 12 bar, it's a good way to demonstrate how to connect chord tones and avoid always playing on the root. Fair play and thanks to BassoRidiculoso for sharing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandro Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 As that guy on Apprentice had said, 'Let me just step in and diffuse the situation'...(loved that line!). It is inevitable that some people might find it useful, and others not. Nothing wrong with that IMO. I am a newbie and looked at it earlier, and it does have a purpose (for me anyways). I'm trying to learn my maj7 arpegios and really commit them to memory. I play it ascdening as you do when you start, and I might write it out for 1 bar, but I also am trying to sight read. I thought it would be nice if I could easily see how chord tones look on the staff not only in sequence and ascending. This does it. I used it for sight reading earlier with a chord I have been running in my head for days and still got stuff wrong trying to play it from the permutations. It forces me to think about where the note is, especially if I need to shift position. I hear the chord tones in different sequences. So it helps me get the notes under my fingers. I hear from lots of people that sight reading is recognising patterns. I think this could help me learn how the notes of a chord look in different situations to recognise chords/patterns. Its just one tool that may assist me for what I am working on right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Cool. I'll leave this alone now because I feel I may have offended the OP. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 If you think that creating and playing simple repetitive note patterns is boring and waste of your time, then maybe the bass is not the instrument for you !!! They do say that bass players have to be great musicians because we have fewer notes than most musicians to be musical and creative with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='1245188' date='May 26 2011, 08:44 AM']If you think that creating and playing simple repetitive note patterns is boring and waste of your time, then maybe the bass is not the instrument for you !!! They do say that bass players have to be great musicians because we have fewer notes than most musicians to be musical and creative with.[/quote] How on earth do we bassists have fewer notes??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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