Crunch time

[Thurbs]

To me there are 2 things at play here, originals and covers.

For covers you are clearly selling a product and should expect to be paid market rates for your performance. Obviously the higher quality the product and the more demand there is, the more you are going to get paid.

For originals then it is much different. When you gig you are simply promoting your self / band / album / EP / whatever to try and gain a loyal fan base. If your product becomes of value to promoters & labels, then you will be able to sell and get paid. I don't accept that because you play music you should expect to get paid, only when it is of value can you reap the rewards.

As for lining the pockets of promoters, I bet if you looked at their books you would be surprised at how much they are throwing down the drain. One promoter I know near me has sunk £300k in to his venture. Crazy.

[ZMech]

[quote name='Conan' post='1246602' date='May 27 2011, 08:06 AM']Isn't it about time we had a few of the purists and pros jump in to tell us how wrong, misguided and subversive we are for playing for nothing or next to nothing? [/quote]

Something something JAZZ something something CRETIN!

Will that do?

[Conan]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1246660' date='May 27 2011, 09:10 AM']Something something JAZZ something something CRETIN!

Will that do? [/quote]

Perfect!

[Telebass]

[quote name='Conan' post='1246598' date='May 27 2011, 08:04 AM']Sounds like you have a dilemma then. This is why a lot of musicians in original bands also play in cover bands. One finances the other as it were.

If you refuse to milk the cash cow then where else are you going to get the money to cover your losses in the original band? Surely if they are good enough and you play at carefully selected venues you can expect to be paid?

Other than that, you are stuck in a cycle that has no end and no way out.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger![/quote]


What he said!

[NJW]

If you're good enough at whatever genre you play, and you play often enough for free, then there's money in all styles of music. However, as has been said, by playing originals you need to make your product have some value first, and that means you need to make sacrifices.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1246112' date='May 26 2011, 07:26 PM']Most of the outlay is in petrol costs to and from rehearsal and gigs. The rest is rehearsal cost itself.[/quote]
Move closer to the rehearsal studio and get a lock-up there. Rehearse less often for longer.

[BottomE]

We do covers and originals but treat them as two bands. Same members - completetly different markets. Covers band finances the other. Also makes the originals tighter as we are used to working with each other.

I'd play for free anyway as i love gigging and don't rely on the money though it does come in handy when persuading Mrs BottomE that i need a new bit of kit.

[JTUK]

We have put our prices up to reflect fuel costs.

We have had to revise our charity policy as well..for the same reason.
We note that vendors and insurance etc ect expect to be paid..so we wonder how much we can offer for free..

Harsh..I agree..!!

[tauzero]

[quote name='BottomE' post='1246878' date='May 27 2011, 11:58 AM']We do covers and originals but treat them as two bands. Same members - completetly different markets. Covers band finances the other. Also makes the originals tighter as we are used to working with each other.[/quote]
We did that too, it meant that when the originals band folded because the singer/songwriter decided to leave and take his songs with him, we still could salvage a very good covers band from the wreckage so it wasn't all wasted effort.

[Bilbo]

You have to go back to the purpose of what you do and a straight forward cost/benefit analysis.

I know a drummer who runs a weekly jazz club where he has 'celebrity' guests (if 'jazz celebrity' is not too much of an oxymoron ); people like Alan Skidmore, Alan Barnes, Tina May etc. The rhythm section is local guys and the gig charges on the door. THe thing is that the r. section don't get paid - only the guest. The rational is that the players all have a great night out playing the music they love with some top players that add to their CVs. If the door take is good, then they can make a modest protfit but, if its not, they lose money. It rarely costs them more than £40 or £50 but they figure thats what one good quality meal for two or one night on the lash would cost so where's the harm.

I have been exploring the possibility of replicating this 'model' in my area and have some players who have agreed to come on board. The thing is, most of us have gear that was bought and paid for long ago and requires minimal maintenance so there is no real loss there. We all love to play (have to, in fact) and will do so whether we are paid or not. If you break it down in strictly business terms, the cost of having a band play at your function should be a minimum of no. of musicians x (%age of gear cost + 47p per mile on car + hourly rate equivalent to minimum wage). If its less than that, its about deciding what is important; the music or the money. I guess the question for some is whether or not hay can carry losing money on gigs.

I did a show last year that involved 2 rehearsals and three gigs. The drive was £15 in petrol every day so it cost me £75 to do the gig. I was told we would only get paid of the show made a profit but I did it for the experience and networking. Of course, despite it being pretty good, the show made a loss (nor surprising; it had a cast of thousands) and we went without payment. I got another call from them a couple of months later offering me the same deal. Not a chance. I can't afford to lose that much to indulge the musical theatre fantasies of a generation of Suffolk wannabes. Pay my expenses and I'm there (I like doing shows every now and then) but not like this.

Function bands, though. Its £100 or I don't even load the car!! I'd rather stay in and practice

PS originals bands should get paid at least expenses also. If a venue hears your maerial and thinks you will appeal to its core audience, it should at least meet you at that level. You should share the risk as equal partners, not carry the venue.

[LawrenceH]

I feel uneasy playing for free in commercial venues, unless it's a jam night where the organisers get a cut. It feels like I'm stealing someone's job, I wouldn't like it if a load of volunteers came into my lab and took over my projects! It just becomes something that only a wealthy elite can afford to do, like many internships.
I'm not convinced that pub chains constitute the most worthy charities...

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1246891' date='May 27 2011, 12:03 PM']Function bands, though. Its £100 or I don't even load the car!! I'd rather stay in and practice

PS originals bands should get paid at least expenses also. If a venue hears your maerial and thinks you will appeal to its core audience, it should at least meet you at that level. You should share the risk as equal partners, not carry the venue.[/quote]

+1 wise words.

I actually get quite passionate when it comes to my ranting about originals bands getting such a bad deal in this current climate. My ex-band didnt care though, and I did, so it ended up being awkward. I wasnt out to make a profit, I wanted to help the entire band pay for expenses, that's it.

What most original bands fail to see is that SOMEONE is making money out of them playing, most of the time. Hence when this occurs I piped up, but they thought I was being a little too business-like.

[JTUK]

That is true... we tend to evaluate each cheap gig on the basis of what we get from it..

We are due to play a few outdoors stages and the money isn't that good...though the cause might be, plus the exes to stage that event are in the £000's so it is harsh to go and charge a decent fee for the RNLI, for example....
but then you look at who else charges..the burgers vendors don't give their stuff away and neither does the bar, or the staging/PA and lights..??..so why do they expect the band to put on a free show..??

Tis difficult..!!!

If the venue has 3000 plus people turn up, we reckon we'd get gigs out of that exposure so offset the monies from a cheap/discounted gig..well, that is the thinking..!!

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='wulf' post='1246599' date='May 27 2011, 08:05 AM']If you choose to play anti-commercial music then you either have to supplement that by a day job or by playing other music which does attract some income.[/quote]

I HAVE a day job. It just doesn't pay enough to subsidise the rehearsal/gig cycle.


[quote name='Conan' post='1246606' date='May 27 2011, 08:09 AM']I think that is what you meant to say....[/quote]

No. It wasn't. The circumstances have been the same for the last 5 or 6 bands Ive been in, but now fuel prices in particular are making it an issue, and my car does 50+ mpg...


[quote name='lojo' post='1246639' date='May 27 2011, 08:54 AM']Re the well heeled comment, every hobby is, its all relative, Id love to go jet skiing every day, but I can't afford to, but also their are people in the world who see my living room with its TV and Wii as something they would love to have just for one day a year

Don't get bitter, make some choices, if you cant afford this band or think they are throwing money away, leave or make some suggestions about saving, perhaps rehearse / write acoustically in someone's place every other practice etc[/quote]

What I'm getting at is the fact that something I have done a lot in the past is now being moved beyond my reach due to circumsatnces beyond my control.
Re: The band, The drummer and I quit. The other two were a***holes.. They lived further away thanthe studio.


[quote name='tauzero' post='1246873' date='May 27 2011, 11:53 AM']Move closer to the rehearsal studio and get a lock-up there. Rehearse less often for longer.[/quote]

Don't think the wife and kids are going to buy that.

Time and money at a premium. Inclination waning. Depression and "For Sale" section looming large.

[Musicman20]

Lfalex - I was in a very similar position. Probably for around a year or so, then I jumped on a chance to rejoin my old band which was even more depressing as their new recruits were plain idiots. The main 'talent' has left (not to be too arrogant, but myself, the drummer and the old guitarist MADE the band so tight it was unreal) apart from the drummer.

That went terribly wrong and I had to fall out with people id known for 16+ years over something so stupid like a band, that will never make it, never get anywhere, and isnt that important. Luckily, the guy I fell out with apologised and we are ok now, but I wont trust them again. But, I felt wasted with them...they didnt like a prominent bass player, and that's what their music needed...so that was pretty weird.

Anyway, I've FINALLY, after 14+ months, found a decent paid band. Not only that, they appreciate me and always shake my hand/give me a positive comment when I nail the tracks live after such a short time of rehearsing. Basically, they were going before I came along, they were just guitar/drums and the guitarist sang. It was all acoustic, and is now apart from me playing elec bass. I did 3 rehearsals and played a huge gig. Massive massive adrenaline rush, got paid, free booze, lots of audience reaction, and basically a great time. It was exactly what I needed.

Id go as far to say my recent 6-8 months of feeling pretty rubbish was down to not playing live or playing with people who 'got' what a decent bassist is for.

I say dont ever give up...its a drug to me and I have to do it. But, when you find it again, you will feel much more positive. I know I do.

Good luck! Advertise like mad and find a band that pays. They do exist.

[gub]

My last hobbie was old rusty v dubs and that has cost me a shed load over the last 20 years or so. which makes me feel a little better when i shell out a bit for a new bass ,leads etc . i do play in a covers band though which brings in maybe £100 a month average and we are lucky enough to get a free rehersal room when ever we need it .

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1246378' date='May 26 2011, 10:36 PM']Covers bands should ALWAYS be paid[/quote]


Ermmmm..... Why?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='1247574' date='May 27 2011, 08:50 PM']Ermmmm..... Why?[/quote]

Because they should. IMO you are providing for the crowd, which is slightly different to an originals band.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Conan' post='1246598' date='May 27 2011, 08:04 AM']Sounds like you have a dilemma then. This is why a lot of musicians in original bands also play in cover bands. One finances the other as it were.[/quote]

And it happens at all levels. Didn't Charlie Watts famously use his 'day job' with the Stones to fund his real passion for big band jazz?

[NickH]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='1247574' date='May 27 2011, 08:50 PM']Ermmmm..... Why?[/quote]
Doesn't matter if you love the gigging or it's just a grind to you - you're providing a skilled service to an establishment who are in business to make a profit, and you're helping them add to that profit.

I love my day job of banking and accountancy, but I wouldn't go along to a random drinking establishment and help a landlord I didn't know with his tax return for free...

... cause if I did, and enough others did, the other accountants who needed to make a living by doing pub accounts would be squeezed out of the market and end up getting screwed.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='NickH' post='1247759' date='May 27 2011, 11:57 PM']Doesn't matter if you love the gigging or it's just a grind to you - you're providing a skilled service to an establishment who are in business to make a profit, and you're helping them add to that profit.

I love my day job of banking and accountancy, but I wouldn't go along to a random drinking establishment and help a landlord I didn't know with his tax return for free...

... cause if I did, and enough others did, the other accountants who needed to make a living by doing pub accounts would be squeezed out of the market and end up getting screwed.[/quote]

Exactly. This applies to why originals bands are having a hard time. Playing in a band is quite a popular past time now the popular music scene is less dance music based, so there are always bands who will play their own music for free, hence every other original band suffers.

[bassmachine2112]

If you fill a pub you deserve to be given a share of the bar profits and entrance money-The only reason your there is to fill the till,if you don,t you will not be back .It is that simple.
Venues that cater for young bands doing the original thing should be ashamed of themselves charging them money to pay by the back door-you have to pay for the use of the PA,the sound engineer,you didn,t sell 100 tickets etc,of course you,re not going to fill the place on tuesday night.
They could point out that they are providing valuable experience for the future and if they didn,t do it there would be no place to play.
Worst case for them is that they cover their feet or they would not do it.
It is worth their while to do this believe me that,s why they do it with the promise of a thursday night then if you bring them in a friday then the local support slot,any of this familiar to anyone.
Right tin hat on and first on the couch