Reading scores

[Bilbo]

I have several orchestral scores that I have acquired over the years and am a little confused and was hoping someone may be able to help. Many instruments are not written in treble or bass clef (alto and tenor clef) etc and some things, clarinets, horns etc, can be transposed into various keys like Eb or F and so on. So, my query is, what is the protocol for reading commercially produced scores? Are all the instruments in the written clef or transposed. I am struggling to form the question here. Can anyone help?

[hubrad]

Anything I've ever been given (and I have to say sight reading is not my strong point ) has been the Bass part, written in bass clef. Either that or chords.
Sometimes by looking over the pianists shoulder I've noticed that the arranger has given us clashing parts or just plain wrong chords .. makes for some fun discussions and a scramble for the CD player!

[deepbass5]

Do you just need reassurance that they are correct?

It’s been years since I played in an orchestra, but the whole piece will be in concert pitch, as a piano and as your bass, so you play a 'c' and you get a 'C'
Brass Trumpets and Trombones are Bb instruments so their parts are written in a key that will sound correct when you all play together. As with the Eb instruments. Most orchestral parts for trombones are in Bass clef but occasionally Tenor clef and also Alto clef. This is a head ache for the player but it will be scored so the orchestra is in concert pitch when the piece is played.

Hope that’s what you wanted

Edited May 29, 2011 by deepbass5

[lowdown]

If the tune is in Concert 'C', Bb instruments would be written in two sharps 'D', Eb instruments would be written in 'A'. etc.

The added problems are things like Tenor sax would be written in 'D' treble clef, but sound an octave lower.
These things have to be thought about when writing a part then putting to paper.

Protocol for commercially produced material going out to orchestras would certainly be to transpose into
the correct instrument keys.


Zoom to about 200% [bit on the small side] some of the Octaves are different, but check the charts below.
All are sounding the note of 'C'
[attachment=81282:C_CONCERT.pdf]



Some transposing and pitch charts here.
[url="http://www.apassion4jazz.net/transposition.html"]http://www.apassion4jazz.net/transposition.html[/url]
[url="http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/transposition.html"]http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/transposition.html[/url]
[url="http://www.secretcomposer.com/Secret_Composer_Blog_Demo/Concert_Pitch_-_Instrument_Transposition_chart.htm"]http://www.secretcomposer.com/Secret_Compo...ition_chart.htm[/url]




Garry

Edited May 29, 2011 by lowdown

[Bilbo]

I am talking about the pocket scores that have the transcription of the whole orchestration for study purposes, not the copies of the score prepared for an orchestra that is going to play. I think I am starting to get it (I have copies of Holst's Planet Suite, Scheherezade and The Firebird Suite and I am trying to glena what I can out of them. I get the strings and some of the woodwinds but some of it confuses my a bit where transposing instruments are concerned.

[Doddy]

I would have thought that all the parts would be transcribed in the correct key for the particular instrument,so the horns would be written as they would for a horn player.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1250519' date='May 30 2011, 05:29 PM']I would have thought that all the parts would be transcribed in the correct key for the particular instrument,so the horns would be written as they would for a horn player.[/quote]
Doddy is quite right. The standard orchestral score is written with all the parts transposed for each instrument that requires it (Bb trumpets / Bb or A clarinets / Horns in F etc) and all instruments will be written in their normal clefs. Bear in mind that other clefs will be used as needed, so for instance if the viola part goes very high, that particular passage may well be written in treble clef rather than alto.

But I guess that Bilbo's question is more about HOW to read a score when all the parts seem to make no immediate sense what with all this transposition going on.

The answer to this is a little more complex. Score reading is an art in itself and not for the faint hearted. It's more about seeing blocks of notes, direction of lines, entries of each part, and following tempo directions and dynamics. Many conductors will mark their scores (and many use the miniature scores that Bilbo is referring to) with red lines to indicate an important entry or a sudden tempo change or a solo part that needs bringing out.

Actually READING each note on the page is mostly unnecessary. During rehearsal, a player may query the conductor about a particular note. There are many well known errors in standard orchestral works, so often a conductor needs to look closely at the score to de-cypher what the 3rd flute, say, is playing in a particular spot. Many scores, particularly the miniature variety, are written with 2 or parts to a line, just so all the lines can be fitted on the page. This can make it difficult to see without a very close look.

Bilbo - does this help ?

The Major

[Bilbo]

Enormously. Thank you, Pete. Its good to know that I am finding something difficult because it [i]is[/i] rather than because I am thick as a house brick

[GonzoBass]

Does [url="http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-transposition.html"]this chart[/url] help at all, Bilbo?

[scalpy]

This post reminds me of a great story about the late, great Maurice Murphy, principle trumpet of the LSO.

Bernstein was conducting a rehearsal, and asks Maurice, "you going to play that with a mute or not?"

Maurice replies, "Well, on the score it says with, but it's been pencilled out."

Bernstein- "So, hot shot, what are you going to do?"

Maurice- "You tell me, you wrote it."

[Bilbo]

I have a friend called Ceiri Torjussen, a trumpet player and composer who I knew when he was a kid. He went on to become an arranger/composer in Hollywood and worked extensively on films like Terminator 3, Blade, Day After Tomorrow etc. Big name stuff under the composer Alan Silvestri. Ceiri wrote his own stuff and was offered the opportunity to hear it played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra - no pressure then . During rehearsals one of the musicians commented that the stuff he had written was unplayable.

'That's funny' says Ceiri. 'The Los Angeles Philharmonic managed it easily enough'.



Now THAT is a put down.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='GonzoBass' post='1251777' date='May 31 2011, 05:05 PM']Does [url="http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-transposition.html"]this chart[/url] help at all, Bilbo?[/quote]

Certainly does no harm, Gonzo, but the stuff I am confused by is more complicated. Like horns and clarinets that can be tuned three different ways, harps, all sorts of weird stuff.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1251907' date='May 31 2011, 07:10 PM']Certainly does no harm, Gonzo, but the stuff I am confused by is more complicated. Like horns and clarinets that can be tuned three different ways, harps, all sorts of weird stuff.[/quote]
There are 4 types of clarinet regularly used in the standard orch.

Bb and A clarinets: All regular clarinet players carry these two.

Eb clarinet is a very small high pitched instrument only occasionally used.

Bass clarinet (in Bb) is common in music from the Romantic period onwards.

Horns are mostly in F but can use different "crooks" to change to other transpositions. This is mainly for baroque and classical period music.

Harps are hugely complex ! They can change the pitch of each string up or down a semitone with the pedals.

If you want to really get into detail with orchestration get a copy of something like Samuel Adler's "The Study of Orchestration". Excellent book !

[Bilbo]

I have that book already, Pete. And the accompanying cds. It is great but having the time to get into every detail is a real frustration. Can I have another life whilst I get on with the one I have?

[scalpy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1251903' date='May 31 2011, 07:08 PM']I have a friend called Ceiri Torjussen, a trumpet player and composer who I knew when he was a kid. He went on to become an arranger/composer in Hollywood and worked extensively on films like Terminator 3, Blade, Day After Tomorrow etc. Big name stuff under the composer Alan Silvestri. Ceiri wrote his own stuff and was offered the opportunity to hear it played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra - no pressure then . During rehearsals one of the musicians commented that the stuff he had written was unplayable.

'That's funny' says Ceiri. 'The Los Angeles Philharmonic managed it easily enough'.



Now THAT is a put down.[/quote]

Should have taken it to the LSO!

Some of the American guys have chops that beggar belief, but the traditional brass band route of our brass players still produces players that the rest of the world can't touch. The new principal of the LSO auditioned against players from across the world, got the gig at the tender age of 21. Former top chair of the National Youth Brass Band.

Back to reading scores, the actual notes are usually only the players concern. The conductor will refer to the rehearsal mark or bar number and if necessary comment on the tuning of intervals or the like, which read the same in any clef. The above posts about looking for lines etc are all bang on, and transposition is not strictly necessary if you're looking for the shape of the phrase for example. (At Uni I studied with several members of the Halle and they stood by 2 theories, 1. play the wrong notes in time and you might just get away with it and 2. it's better to play sharp than out of tune.) However if you are scoring then, it does become very necessary, but Sibelius (the software) has been a god send! Sibelius himself of course did not need it...!