Recording Set up

[Basszilla]

Hi guys

I'm looking to get a computer based recording set up for recording my 4 piece band, so I thought I'd turn to the trusty BC members for advice. I have plenty of recording experience, just not on a PC (I don't know much about them truth be told).

The problem i'm facing is, making sure I buy the right components to get the job done and general newb setup questions.

I need the set up to be semi mobile as I don't have a dedicated room for recording. (but I don't ming lugging equipment either)

I've bought some monitors (MAudioAV40) and will be adding bits over the next couple of months as and when I can afford them.

* I've yet to get a PC but will likely go laptop for portability (any recommendations as to minimum spec etc to run without hitch) I've been looking on PC-Specialist.co.uk
* I need a good soundcard and USB interface (any recommendations?)
* A front end with 8 mic pres (for drum tracking, any recommendations?)
* Would I need at least a 16 track USB mixer or can I skip this and mix on screen as long as I have a 8 channel preamp?

I will likely be using adobe audition purely on recommendation by my brother.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Tim

Edited July 8, 2011 by Basszilla

[Skol303]

[quote name='Basszilla' post='1251451' date='May 31 2011, 01:32 PM']I will likely be using adobe audition purely on recommendation by my brother.[/quote]

... I'd also recommend checking out a piece of software called 'Record', made by a Swedish company Propellerhead. You can download a demo from their website (the demo allows you to save but not re-open projects):

[url="http://www.propellerheads.se/products/record/"]http://www.propellerheads.se/products/record/[/url]

IMHO, it's one of the best-value DAWs out there for recording purposes. Very easy to use; has a superb mixing desk built in and includes a bunch of FX courtesy of the people at Line 6. I'm constantly recommending it but I don't work for Propellerhead... honest!

Interface-wise, I use a trusty Tascam (old yet reliable):

[url="http://www.dawsons.co.uk/acatalog/tascam-us144-mk2-usb--audio-interface.html"]http://www.dawsons.co.uk/acatalog/tascam-u...-interface.html[/url]

...but I'd also recommend anything made by Focusrite, based on personal experience:

[url="http://www.focusrite.com/products/audio_interfaces"]http://www.focusrite.com/products/audio_interfaces[/url]

Hope that helps and happy shopping!

[Basszilla]

Thanks a lot, that does help.

With regard to the interface - as i'm going to be recording up to 8 tracks (drums) at once, does this need to reflect with the number of I/O on the chosen unit? i.e 8x8?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here. Confused.com

[redstriper]

I have been using one of [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/alesis_multimix_16_firewire.htm"]these[/url] for the past 4 years and I am very happy with it.
It is connected via firewire to an old Toshiba Satellite laptop running Cubase.
You need a firewire port on your laptop or a PCI card to fit one - I had to do this because the mini firewire port caused drop outs.
It will record up to 16 tracks at once with very low latency and I have recorded 3 albums and many demos with great results.
Latest recprdings can be heard [url="http://myspace.com/tacsiband"]here[/url].

[51m0n]

Software wise I'd really recommend Reaper - best bang for the buck DAW out there IMO. It comes with some of the best VSTs I've ever heard and is ultra lightweight and fast. It is truly superb.

You wont need a control interface for mixing, although it can be nice, you will need to find a decent soundcard/interface, RME make arguably the best, but you will pay an arm and a leg.

As for spec, very few cheaper lappies are really up to it, the harddrives are too slow usually, you cant get enough RAM in them and so on and so forth.

Its not impossible though. If you dont want to worry about it get a top flight mac book pro, they can handle recording multitrack and mixing.

If you cant afford one of them, then you need to look for at least 4GB of RAM (preferrably at least 8GB), preferrably an i7 processor (Sandybridge currently has issues with audio/drives apparently), although a fast i5 will do. Get one with an eSata port for an external harddrive.

This will cost a lot of money, it will however do the job.

[jakemeathook]

Reaper is brilliant value for money!

[51m0n]

I recently bought a Sony Vaio VPCF1. It has an i7 processor, up to 8 Gigs of RAM, came with Win7 Home Premium.

It is a beast. Running Reaper I have successfully mixed sessions with 60+ tracks and groups with huge numbers of vsts (think gate, comp, eq on every track, 4 convolution reverbs, some real heavy weight power hungry saturation vsts, heavy duty analogue style delays etc).

I have got up to 50% CPU utilage so far.

That is pretty much stock, given the improvements that culling the Sony bloatware will bring, not to mention adding the extra 4GB of ram to take it up to full, and lastly using a very fast external eSata connected harddrive I cannot see this being unable to cope any time soon.

As for an 8 channel interface I have used the original Focusrite octopre before to great success, its about the only unit with a useful single knob compressor that I've found in fact.

Money no object I'd suggest an RME UFX, failing that the RME Babyface has an ADAT in so you can connext an Octopre to it and use it alongside the Babyface's other two inputs to give you 10 ins.

RME are absolutely top top interfaces, and you pay for the pleasure, but they are seriously seriously good.

You will not need an external mixer at all. Use the DAW to mix with, its what it is there for.

[lowdown]

Another plug for RME here.
I use the Hammerfall DSP 9632 with an expansion board.
Apart from the great performance at very low latency, a big bump for the Midi drivers. Tight and very very stable.
Well worth the extra dosh.

All the 64 bit drivers have been updated of late as well.

Garry

Edited July 6, 2011 by lowdown

[thisnameistaken]

The Behringer ADA8000 rack pre is actually a decent bit of kit - get that if you want to track drums and you're on a tight budget, it does the job.

For an interface I'm currently using an M-Audio FW1814 which will take the 8 ins from the Behringer via a digital in, and/or it has 2 built-in pres on the front, it can do more ins too, it is tiny and weighs practically nothing. But you might want to look at newer interfaces than old Firewire boxes - the usual tech merry-go-round is busy phasing it out right about now.

I use these in conjunction with a Macbook Pro and either Pro Tools M-Powered or Reaper as my mobile rig, along with a box of mics and cables and two or three pairs of DT-100s. Usually I won't take the Behringer rack, I'll just take the laptop, the M-Audio box and other bits.

It's a flexible setup. It worked for tracking 10 drum tracks at once in my living room and I've also lugged it all on the train by myself without too much hassle (even took a stand!) to track a guest trombonist for our last EP. I also have a pair of fairly portable monitors but I usually leave them at home - I'm generally confident that if I can get a decent sound on the cans it will be mix-able at home.

[Basszilla]

Ok guys, my new set up has arrived.

1 Rain Livebook (windows 7 pro64, i7 dual, 8GBram, 750GB HDD)
1 express card Firewire connect
1 Tascam us-1800 interface (USB2.0 connect)
1 24" LCD monitor
Pair of MAudio AV40 speakers.

It's got reaper installed, will get the license when it expires in due course. I have a paper copy of the reaper manual and also saved as PDF on my lappy.

Pretty excited about getting stuck into this although i'm fully aware it's going to be one hell of a learning curve.

Expect some questions soon (if you don't mind helping here and there)

[51m0n]

The reaper license doesnt exactly expire, its trustware.

Well worth the piddling amount they ask of you!

[Basszilla]

Yeah i'll be paying it in any case, as you said, cheap as chips!

[lanark]

[quote name='Basszilla' post='1294805' date='Jul 6 2011, 03:08 PM']Ok guys, my new set up has arrived.

1 Rain Livebook (windows 7 pro64, i7 dual, 8GBram, 750GB HDD)
1 express card Firewire connect
1 Tascam us-1800 interface (USB2.0 connect)
1 24" LCD monitor
Pair of MAudio AV40 speakers.

It's got reaper installed, will get the license when it expires in due course. I have a paper copy of the reaper manual and also saved as PDF on my lappy.

Pretty excited about getting stuck into this although i'm fully aware it's going to be one hell of a learning curve.

Expect some questions soon (if you don't mind helping here and there)[/quote]

When you've got this set up, I'd love it if you could give us a review of it all. It's something that I've often wondered about it putting together a recording kit and it would be interesting to see others' experiences.

[Basszilla]

[quote name='lanark' post='1295738' date='Jul 7 2011, 10:37 AM']When you've got this set up, I'd love it if you could give us a review of it all. It's something that I've often wondered about it putting together a recording kit and it would be interesting to see others' experiences.[/quote]


Yeah sure, although be warned I'm not the best on computer set ups I'm used to recording on good old 8 and 16 tracks.

This is my first foray into using computers and software for audio, and i'm just realising the size of the can of worms I've opened. It's going to be a tough yet fun and fulfilling learning curve. (i hope).

I've got most of the bits I need to get going, and have managed to set them up. I've spent the last 24 hours trying to resolve a screen issue, which was resolved by using the HDMI connects rather than the Dsub (vga). So i'm literally learning all of this from the ground up.

Next job is to connect my interface and get that set up properly. An easy task for some, a mighty task for my 'newb' status.

I've had a brief read through of the very dense Reaper manual and I must say, it is daunting compared to my humble recording experience!!!! I'm definitely going to get stuck with this but will (fingers crossed) get there in the end. Time, practice and patience is hopefully going to get me up and running eventually.

If anyone has great experience with reaper and can offer tips, links, or anything you think might be useful, please chip in

[Mornats]

I've only just started recording stuff too and whilst admittedly I'm quite good around computers I didn't find it all too daunting.

I use a MacBook Pro for work and my boss is kind enough to let me use it for recording at home so I use Garageband (it came free with the Mac and it's just so simple to use) and a Native Instruments Guitar Rig Session I/O to record my bass. That's pretty much it for the basics although I've expanded into getting EZ Drummer to lay down some drum tracks and Komplete 7 Elements for synths and other sounds and also Session Strings just because I love cinematic music and like to have a play with some strings I use a midi keyboard to play all of the virtual instruments.

I've had a look at Reaper and it looks pretty decent. I may swap from Garageband and use Reaper as I can then transfer files between my Mac and PC. I would definitely buy it, it's real cheap and I really support their avoidance of DRM and their "trustware" attitude.

The main problem that had me stumped when I first started recording was forgetting that I need to tell the DAW (Garageband/Reaper) to use the audio interface as the soundcard but once I got rid of my "duh" moment everything just fell into place.

[51m0n]

If you find that once you get your rig up and running you get issues with clicks on audio, then its likely a device or service that you arent using muscling in on cpu power.

Download this tool:-

[url="http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml"]http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml[/url]

And follow the (fantastic) instructions on the page to help diagnose wqhat is causing the issue.

One of the nice things about my Vaio is it has a hardware switch on the front which turns off blueray and wireless, two sets of services then shutdown, and the chances of them requesting cpu time at an inopportune moment decreases.

The fact taht you got a dedicated audio lappie means it is like ly to be set up to really 'work' at audio - you've saved a lot of heartache there!

The recommended Behringer ADA8000 above is considered an alarmingly good bit of kit for the money, mainly for the AD converters rather than the mic pres, admittedly.

The thing is, coming from a 16 track world you are already schooled in the use of aux sends to maximise the paltry available hardware resource (ie reverbs & choruses), and if you used an 8 or even 4 group desk, chances are you are well versed in setting up groups. If you were lucky that desk had inserts on the groups and all the channels which you used to apply dynamic control to those groups and channels, or a bit of dirt or whatever.

All that knowledge is completely applicable to Reaper, just more so.

The inbuilt fx are many and varied, Stillwell ones are superb, as are the Cockos ones (one of the best non-linear phase eqs I've used, and the most versatile compressor I've found, not a character comp as such, just a superb workhorse, use it all the time).

The application of these effects hasnt really changed, just the interface. Dont be daunted!

Really the quality of the outcome hasnt changed, if anything all thats happened is the plying field has been very greatly (not completely by any means) levelled between you and a full studio. If you can get some acoustic control in your tracking/mixing space (basstraps, absorbers etc) and have reasonable mics, then there is nothing to stop you getting broadcast quality results with that set up....

Edited July 8, 2011 by 51m0n

[Basszilla]

Thanks 51mOn that's a lot of help. It took a while and a bunch of research before I pulled the trigger on the livebook, but as you said, should hopefully save a bit of ar$ing about.

Regarding my 16 track and previous recording experience, I've never used groups or made submixes, mainly through not knowing how to and not fully understanding them. I'd always just work the individual faders/eq until I was happy. I'd add some light compression to the master sometimes and occasionally i'd add some reverb/delay through to one or two channels but that's about it. So, I've used it in a pretty basic sense in that i'd have all the tracks recorded on the 16 tracks, and just mix from there.

I read a post by you talking about groups/sub mixes and that sort of got me thinking, thinking that i've really got to get to know how to do all of this properly.

Something else that has been bothering me. How do I visually monitor my input gain when recording a track, say bass? My interface doesn't have meters. I'm assuming the meters are on the software are they?

I'm going to be bugging people on the reaper forum a lot I guess!

Thanks

[51m0n]

[u]Groups[/u]

Ok, this is simple to explain.

Say you have two mics on a guitar cab, that you have painstakingly phase aligned by getting them positioned just so.

Both mics sound great on their owm and mix together beautifully giving a wide range of available choices of timbre at mixdown.

WHen you get to mix down it becomes apparent that a certain blend (say 55% mic A, 45% mic is exactly right for the track.

Once you have decided this you want to maintain this mix throughout the song, but ride the level of the overall sound up in the choruses by a couple of dB.

This is an ideal case for a group.

So in reaper you have your two recorded tracks of guitar (Guitar A & Guitar , and you want to group them together.

Add a track (ctrl t IIRC), name it Guitar Group, then click and drag the Guitar A track up to the new track, a little light blue line will appear as you hold the track and it will indent slightly.

Do the same with Guitar B.

Now during playback if you watch the meters on the Guitar Group track you can see signal in that track at the same time as in the two child tracks of the group.

Simples!


[u]Auxes[/u]

Similar thing, you want to put a reverb on your guitar group and the vocalist, and you have a really super, but processor heavy VST that will do the job beautifully.

You can either put an instnace of the processor on each trck (guitar group and vocals) and adjust the wet dry mix on the vst or you can set up an Aux buss style track put the reverb on that track (set compltely wet) and send a bit of signal to it offany tracks that you want to.

So we add a new track, label it reverb, add the reverb effect, set it completely wet.

Now on the Reaper tracks you can see a little I/O button (I/O, Env, S buttons exist on each track). Click the IO button of the guitar group and drag to the reverb channel. Play the track and watch the meters on the reverb channel.

Now click the IO button on either channel, a dialog will come up. From the perspective of the reverb it is Receiving signal from the Guitar, from the perspective of the GUitar channel its sending to the Reverb. The level can be adjusted at either end.

Simples....

[Basszilla]

Cheers 51mOn, you're a leg-end.

I'll be back at some point with more questions no doubt

[51m0n]

I'll expect that

I'll know when you are getting your head around this when you ask how to make the fader on the tracks within the group control the send to the reverb...


Consider this though, with Reaper you can add any effects you want in a chain on a track insert, you also have a wet/dry level on every effect in a chain.

You can control pan and volume and muting of any track by programming control changes, or automating their control

You can control any parameter on any effect, either manually by programming them or setting up automated controls.

You can choose any opne of 7 pan laws for the project, and any track within that project can be set differently.

Given a decent set of ears, a reasonable monitoring environment some free vsts and the time you can make a track do anything you like.

I have just completed the most complex mix I have ever done. At one stage approximately 30 parameters in the mix are changing to control the sound of the drums and the levels of the instruments over about an 8 second period. Literally, independant control over ratios, attack times, thresholds and releases on various compressors, effects sends, effects return levels, different eq parmaters, all at the same time. The result is completely seamless, and you would think it was just the sound of the musicians playing, in reality its a hugely complex mix automation to make it sound like that. Turn off the mix automation and it sounds nothing like as emotionally powerful within the mix. Turn off all the effects and it sounds a site less impressive again.

I'm thoroughly proud of it actually

And its only possible because of the power of the modern DAW, you couldnt fit enough people around a desk to turn that many knobs and push that many faders in an old school mixdown, not possible.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Basszilla' post='1297166' date='Jul 8 2011, 01:17 PM']Something else that has been bothering me. How do I visually monitor my input gain when recording a track, say bass? My interface doesn't have meters. I'm assuming the meters are on the software are they?

I'm going to be bugging people on the reaper forum a lot I guess!

Thanks [/quote]


Yes use the meters on the track.

Record at 24 bit and leave yourself a good 6-12dB of gain above your highest peaks for drums, and everything else. With 24bit you wont lose any resolution at all. With reasonable gain staging and so on you wont have any S/N ratio worries.

Dont be tempted to drive too hard into the front of your interface, the AD wont handle it well near 0dbFS, and its often the weak point in the chain.

The reaper forum is a superb place to read info and ask questions, very cool people on there as a rule.

[Tuco]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1297392' date='Jul 8 2011, 04:28 PM']Yes use the meters on the track.

Record at 24 bit and leave yourself a good 6-12dB of gain above your highest peaks for drums, and everything else. With 24bit you wont lose any resolution at all. With reasonable gain staging and so on you wont have any S/N ratio worries.

Dont be tempted to drive too hard into the front of your interface, the AD wont handle it well near 0dbFS, and its often the weak point in the chain.

The reaper forum is a superb place to read info and ask questions, very cool people on there as a rule.[/quote]
+1 one of the best forums out there