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Ramping up the harmonics to get a more audible sound at lower volume live?


Beedster
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This might be a daft question and perhaps shows how little I've really thought about my live sound over the years, but here goes! We play quite a lot of small venues which have issues with volume levels. Having done quite a bit of recording recently and playing with bass tones a lot, it's clear that ramping up the harmonics (by driving the signal a bit) allows the bass to sit in the mix more audibly, especially on mp3 and similar formats. I'm guessing it requires less power also? I tend to use a very clean and traditional tone on my EB, quite retro and thumpy, and at a couple of venues we do have owners asking us to drop the bass. Is going for a less clean sound going to work live in the same way as it seems to in the studio?

Cheers

C

Edited by Beedster
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[quote name='TimR' post='1252561' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:15 PM']Most up us have been doing something similar to this for years. Just bump up the mids.[/quote]

Thanks Tim, agreed, but I think it's a bit more than boosting the mids (or it may not be, which is why I've asked the question). When you bump up the mids, to my ear the bass sounds more middy. I'm talking about upping the gain and reducing the volume whilst retaining EQ; the brain hears it is as louder than it is of course, but I was surprised how effective this is in recording for keeping the apparent original tone?

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Short answer : yes.

Longer answer: Fletcher Munsen curves, so yes.

Really long answer: The human ear is most sensitive around the mid frequencies, removing those from the bass sound makes it a) harder to hear) :) harder for the brain to work out the pitch. This can be good if you dont want people to know if you've hit the right note, but it also means that in order to be 'heard' you turn up louder than you need to.

On one hand you can add some dirt to add some info up in the mids. this is nice as the dirt is also a form of compressor (oh god here he goes [i]again[/i]) so the added info 'stays in play' more evenly than if you just eq it in, you get a more even mix regardless of notes played, style, technical aberrations etc.

If you like a bit of warmth/overdrive/dirt this is just a superb solution then. If you like i clean then more mids (not stupid amounts) and a well set up clean compressor will achieve exactly the same result without the dirt....

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Also of note is the way the overdriven sound being compressed is going to make a real change to the envelope of the sound. It will sustain more, so you are more audible for longer.

Remember you are fighting the big bad kick drum live.

If your bass's thud is in the same space as the kick thud then you will have to fight the kick.

If your bass is compressed by a bit of drive then it will be louder after the kick, and so be easier to hear in the mix.

If you doint want drive, thenget a good comrpessor and set it up right and you will be laughing

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If the bass sound 5im0n is getting on my band's mixes is anything to go by, I can only concur. 5imon makes me sound like I have the best tone in the world :) It's a delight to listen to. The tone had some drive and a fair amount of low mid, but it sounds amazing now Si's got hold of it!

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[quote name='51m0n' post='1252575' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:24 PM']Short answer : yes.

Longer answer: Fletcher Munsen curves, so yes.

Really long answer: The human ear is most sensitive around the mid frequencies, removing those from the bass sound makes it a) harder to hear) :) harder for the brain to work out the pitch. This can be good if you dont want people to know if you've hit the right note, but it also means that in order to be 'heard' you turn up louder than you need to.

On one hand you can add some dirt to add some info up in the mids. this is nice as the dirt is also a form of compressor (oh god here he goes [i]again[/i]) so the added info 'stays in play' more evenly than if you just eq it in, you get a more even mix regardless of notes played, style, technical aberrations etc.

If you like a bit of warmth/overdrive/dirt this is just a superb solution then. If you like i clean then more mids (not stupid amounts) and a well set up clean compressor will achieve exactly the same result without the dirt....[/quote]


[quote name='51m0n' post='1252580' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:27 PM']Also of note is the way the overdriven sound being compressed is going to make a real change to the envelope of the sound. It will sustain more, so you are more audible for longer.

Remember you are fighting the big bad kick drum live.

If your bass's thud is in the same space as the kick thud then you will have to fight the kick.

If your bass is compressed by a bit of drive then it will be louder after the kick, and so be easier to hear in the mix.

If you doint want drive, thenget a good comrpessor and set it up right and you will be laughing[/quote]

How unlike you to mention compression 51m0n :)

Thanks mate, thought you'd be along pretty quick! Having thought about it a little more, I guess what I've noticed with adding some dirt to the bass in recording is that whilst soloed it sounds distorted, in the mix it doesn't, and in fact sounds surprisingly like the original bass track, just without the needles and cones bouncing around so much (i.e., the natural compression you mention). It definitely doesn't sound more middy to my ear, that's for sure.

Another reason for my line of thinking in this is that, like Clarky, I play DB against a big drummer and it can be a struggle to get the bass up in the mix without changing the tone dramatically. I'm wondering whether, somewhat counter-intuitively, I should be ramping up the gain of the DB signal a little also?

C

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[quote name='Beedster' post='1252597' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:45 PM']How unlike you to mention compression 51m0n :)

Thanks mate, thought you'd be along pretty quick! Having thought about it a little more, [b]I guess what I've noticed with adding some dirt to the bass in recording is that whilst soloed it sounds distorted, in the mix it doesn't, and in fact sounds surprisingly like the original bass track, just without the needles and cones bouncing around so much (i.e., the natural compression you mention). It definitely doesn't sound more middy to my ear, that's for sure. [/b]

Another reason for my line of thinking in this is that, like Clarky, I play DB against a big drummer and it can be a struggle to get the bass up in the mix without changing the tone dramatically. I'm wondering whether, somewhat counter-intuitively, I should be ramping up the gain of the DB signal a little also?

C[/quote]
Exactly my approach for the last couple of years. I never use a clean bass sound now, it's always dirty but sounds lovely and warm in the mix. I just clean it up in the quiet parts by being gentle on the strings.

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[quote name='silddx' post='1252593' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:42 PM']If the bass sound 5im0n is getting on my band's mixes is anything to go by, I can only concur. 5imon makes me sound like I have the best tone in the world :) It's a delight to listen to. The tone had some drive and a fair amount of low mid, but it sounds amazing now Si's got hold of it![/quote]


You'll have to post some examples or people will think I'm bribing you mate :)

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[quote name='Beedster' post='1252597' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:45 PM']How unlike you to mention compression 51m0n :)

Thanks mate, thought you'd be along pretty quick! Having thought about it a little more, I guess what I've noticed with adding some dirt to the bass in recording is that whilst soloed it sounds distorted, in the mix it doesn't, and in fact sounds surprisingly like the original bass track, just without the needles and cones bouncing around so much (i.e., the natural compression you mention). It definitely doesn't sound more middy to my ear, that's for sure.

Another reason for my line of thinking in this is that, like Clarky, I play DB against a big drummer and it can be a struggle to get the bass up in the mix without changing the tone dramatically. I'm wondering whether, somewhat counter-intuitively, I should be ramping up the gain of the DB signal a little also?

C[/quote]

Dont underestimate the power of "psychoacoustic fuzzyness" :)

With this new pschoacoustic fuzzyfelt set I can make your bass leap out of a mix and cuddle you to death....

You are experiencing a phenominan long used in studios to make everything a bit more apparent - back in the day it was often achieved by driving the tape 'too hard', tape saturation is a lovely thing!

DB live is a feedback bitch, compression makes feedback MORE likely (think about it) so you would be well advised to experiment with extremem caution!

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[quote name='51m0n' post='1252612' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:55 PM']You'll have to post some examples or people will think I'm bribing you mate :)[/quote]
I'd love to, but then Kit would kill me :)

Honestly, I know my tones are decent to begin with, but my bass has never sounded so good mate!

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[quote name='silddx' post='1252620' date='Jun 1 2011, 01:03 PM']I'd love to, but then Kit would kill me :)

Honestly, I know my tones are decent to begin with, but my bass has never sounded so good mate![/quote]

Fair enough, I will redouble my efforts to get the lot done so she can post them up as soon as possible, just the wedding & honeymoon slowing me down....

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[quote name='51m0n' post='1252627' date='Jun 1 2011, 01:08 PM']Fair enough, I will redouble my efforts to get the lot done so she can post them up as soon as possible, just the wedding & honeymoon slowing me down....[/quote]
Don't you worry about that mate, your wedding and honymoon are the absolute priority. Wait until afterwards then you can concentrate on you both having the best day of your lives so far :)

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I often use sounds that when solo'd are horribly dirty, but when in the mix just sound very bright and punchy.

In the case of the DB maybe it'd be best to just add dirt to the upper mids, as perhaps then you'd be less likely to introduce feedback..?

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[quote name='Beedster' post='1252572' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:19 PM']Thanks Tim, agreed, but I think it's a bit more than boosting the mids (or it may not be, which is why I've asked the question). When you bump up the mids, to my ear the bass sounds more middy. I'm talking about upping the gain and reducing the volume whilst retaining EQ; the brain hears it is as louder than it is of course, but I was surprised how effective this is in recording for keeping the apparent original tone?[/quote]

Technically it's LESS than boosting the mids. Generally with transistor distortion you are getting mainly even harmonics and with tube distortion you're boosting the odd harmonics. This is why it sounds different to just boosting all the mids.

It still has the same effect overall for the same reason but will sound different.

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[quote name='TimR' post='1252733' date='Jun 1 2011, 02:49 PM']Technically it's LESS than boosting the mids. Generally with transistor distortion you are getting mainly even harmonics and with tube distortion you're boosting the odd harmonics. This is why it sounds different to just boosting all the mids.

It still has the same effect overall for the same reason but will sound different.[/quote]


There was me lead to believe tubes were mainly even harmonic distortion...

This chap did some experiments with tube vs tape distortion [url="http://www.endino.com/archive/arch2.html"]here[/url] that are pretty interesting IMO....

Edited by 51m0n
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I've always used squeeeeky clean amps (SWR, Euphonic) then messed them up a bit with a Sansamp - it is a bit distorted and overcooked, but you don't hear that in a band context. Just sounds "older" to me. Thought about compression..but I'm too lazy!

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[quote name='BassBod' post='1252856' date='Jun 1 2011, 04:38 PM']I've always used squeeeeky clean amps (SWR, Euphonic) then messed them up a bit with a Sansamp - it is a bit distorted and overcooked, but you don't hear that in a band context. Just sounds "older" to me. Thought about compression..but I'm too lazy![/quote]

What if I told you you just done did the compressing thing inadvertantly, would that help you feel less lazy? :)

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[quote name='51m0n' post='1252800' date='Jun 1 2011, 03:53 PM']There was me lead to believe tubes were mainly even harmonic distortion...

This chap did some experiments with tube vs tape distortion [url="http://www.endino.com/archive/arch2.html"]here[/url] that are pretty interesting IMO....[/quote]

:) I should really do some revision. :)

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So I should use a slight dab of overdrive on my double bass??? crazy, but that's just more reason to try it :) Should I be roughly shooting for a sound that sounds only slightly distorted when playing solo? A sound clip example of a distorted/compressed bass first solo then playing w/ the band would be great if someone can put one up.

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[quote name='51m0n' post='1252875' date='Jun 1 2011, 04:50 PM']What if I told you you just done did the compressing thing inadvertantly, would that help you feel less lazy? :)[/quote]

I'd have a gentle glow of smug satisfaction....might also explain why I've been doing it for 15 years and its always worked!

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[quote name='slobluesine' post='1256474' date='Jun 4 2011, 02:09 PM']i've always read that 'gain staging' (low input level and high master level) is the best way to get high volume with low feedback in order to cut through the mix :)[/quote]

I've always understood it to be the reverse - highest input level without unwanted distortion..and minimum output volume...as a way of achieving the best possible signal to noise ratio!?

We must be bass players......

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[quote name='ZMech' post='1253555' date='Jun 2 2011, 09:33 AM']So I should use a slight dab of overdrive on my double bass??? crazy, but that's just more reason to try it :) Should I be roughly shooting for a sound that sounds only slightly distorted when playing solo? A sound clip example of a distorted/compressed bass first solo then playing w/ the band would be great if someone can put one up.[/quote]


+1, how about using an MXR80 or such?

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