Exposed as terrible fraud

[thepurpleblob]

For one reason or another I am currently playing on two covers bands.

The first has been playing for about 12 years - 3 years with me. They are all experienced, confident musicians. I am the least experienced by an order of magnitude. The band I played in for a number of years previously to this was pretty much the same. In both cases, I enjoy the playing and mostly find it quite an easy ride.

Now the second, newer band are much less experienced. The drummer in particular is hasn't been playing long and, although he is ok, doesn't have the confidence (and volume) I am used to. The trouble is, I now feed completely exposed. My timing is all over the place and I feel like I have been put back about 5 years. I'm really having to concentrate and put tons of work in to keep up.

What's going on? Is it just an old-fashioned "fitting in" thing or am I being totally carried by the experienced guys in the other band - exposed as a fraud if you will

[skankdelvar]

Fraud? Not at all.

There's always a degree of 'settling in' when you're working with a new drummer. If they're inexperienced, it takes a bit longer. The fact that your timing, etc., feels uncomfortable is down to the fact that rtm sections operate as a unit. As a bass player, it's not your resp to magically imbue a newb with the vibe you've become used to with your regular drummer.

It's no reflection on you, no siree. Maybe book a 'bass'n'drums only' session and just groove on some really simple stuff for a couple of hours. I've found it works a treat.

Edited June 1, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Mykesbass]

I wouldn't say fraud but in my experienc it is a lot harder work with a less experienced/able drummer. I have a similar problem, although we locked in beautifully at a gig on Sunday. You do end up noticing all sorts of things like, for example, the singer speeding up - an experienced drummer will hold him in place whereas with a less experienced one it falls to you to try and keep things in check.

Talk to your drummer - I have. Mine didn't get the idea of a big powerful snare on the third beat in a ballad, however, on Sunday this was exactly how he played "Knocking On Heaven's Door" so he is now going to work on that for other songs.

[PURPOLARIS]

I've got a problem with the drummer in one of my bands that he comes back in too quickly after fills with me sometimes having to miss a whole note to get back in time. He also tends to hit the cymbals at the wrong time which used to throw me out.

I used to think it was me but I've never had that problem with a drummer before and don't have in a new Acoustic band I joined. The drummer and myself locked in straight away. I'm used to the other drummer now and musically we're quite tight. I guess it takes just getting to know each other.

[Marvin]

No, not a fraud.

I'm very inexperienced, but have noticed a huge difference in how easy it is to 'fit' into a band depending on how you well you work with the drummer, or not.

One drummer turned up to a rehearsal I attended, never met the guy before, but the first few hits of his kit I knew the next couple of hours would be easy and they were.

[JTUK]

I couldn't do this... I am not prepared to have to work that hard making someone else sound good. It is a two way street, IMO.
You compliment and compromise

I know that is our job to be the glue..but there is a limit.

There is nothing worse than missing the '1'...it just shouldn't happen.

[Fat Rich]

If you can play in time with a click or a drum machine then you're not a fraud

A confident and experienced drummer will keep good time even when the rest of the band is all over the place, maybe your less experienced drummer is trying to lock into you or the guitarist. Or heaven forbid, trying to lock into a vocalist's timing!

Have a word with him and see where he's at, maybe have a couple of rehearsals without the rest of the band so there are less distractions for both of you and see if it starts to come together that way.

[gjones]

There was a drummer I used to play with who I would have to watch and wait to see when he hit his snare as he came out of (hopelessly out of time) fills so that we didn't go out of synch when we came back into the song. Another who was so busy hitting his cymbals on weird off beats that he forgot that he was a part of the rhythm section and expected to keep the beat. A good drummer can make or break a band and having to put up with a bad one can make an otherwise good band (and the bass player) sound like amateurs.

[thepurpleblob]

I'm not suggesting that the drummer is rubbish or anything. He's not perfect but he makes an effort. He just doesn't have that air of confidence that I think I'm used to. I guess I've been lucky!

[Gareth Hughes]

You're not a fraud - and you're not alone!!! I play for a living so the smug side of me reckons I'm the dogs doo-dahs. Well, I just started playing with a new band and found myself rushing all over the place. I've always been pretty proud of my timing (one drummer I work with a lot re-named his new bands click track 'The Hughes Track'), so I was well mortified at finding myself pushing ahead. But..........I have been playing a lot with a slew of young drummers in a wedding band that rush like crazy when they gets all excited. Losing whatever sensitivity I ever had, I've just started glaring at them, doing a Status Quo impersonation to show where the time is and yelling 'Are you in a rush to get home?' at the top of my lungs mid-song.

The upside to all of what you're going through is that it will make you a better musician. I used to enjoy playing with dodgy drummers because it made me work harder to establish the beat. Used to. Now it just p*sses me off.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Gareth Hughes

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1253116' date='Jun 1 2011, 08:22 PM']No, not a fraud.

I'm very inexperienced, but have noticed a huge difference in how easy it is to 'fit' into a band depending on how you well you work with the drummer, or not.

One drummer turned up to a rehearsal I attended, never met the guy before, but the first few hits of his kit I knew the next couple of hours would be easy and they were.[/quote]In total agreement with that.

[4000]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1253127' date='Jun 1 2011, 08:32 PM']If you can play in time with a click or a drum machine then you're not a fraud [/quote]

Early in my playing career I joined a band who shortly after signed to an independent label and started recording an album. When we were recording the album the drummer put down the drums tracks first and then I had to put my bass over his drums. I couldn't do it ; I just couldn't nail the timing. I was miles out, and my confidence plummeted; this was my first break and I'd blown it. I remember lying awake in the hotel for most of the night thinking "I can't do it, I'm not good enough; I'm never going to be able to be a successful musician". It horrified me; I was crushed.

After a day or so of faffing about the engineer put a click down and asked me to play to that instead. I nailed every track first time (wish I could still do that!). It was the drummer who was all over the place, not me. Of course with a real drummer you have to compromise but I also have long experience of playing with a drummer who plays softly and follows rather than leads; for some stuff it works fine but for others it's a nightmare and it can lead to you questioning yourself.

What helps is a drummer who listens, both to what he's doing and to constructive criticism (this goes for any musician). I once played with another drummer who used to slow down noticeably all the time and who used to get very angry when you pointed it out, however tactfully. The penny only dropped when he finally heard himself recorded....

[essexbasscat]

Seems to be a popular topic this one, comes around every once in a while like the flu.

It got to a point with me that I refused to slow down / speed up with the drummer whatsoever (unless it's deliberate and appropriate i.e. Wind Cries Mary JH). After a while it became apparent to one and all that the drummer was the culprit and he was the one exposed.
It's up to the individual drummer how they react to that and up to me to respond to his reaction in a helpful or constructive way, if at all possible.

The topic of tempo drift was never an issue during years of playing with bands with conductors, as every band member was expected to follow the conductor's lead. Indeed, entry to the band was only granted on the condition that a musician could follow the conductor's lead and play as a unit with the other band members. It does tend to set a personal benchmark.

[Beedster]

When I was a kid I used to think that the drummer in the band kept time. It took me years to realise that in many bands it's the bass player. Problem is that most drummers don't recognise this, and assume that the rest of the musicians have to stay with them irrespective of the fact that their timing might be somewhat less than regular. Our drummer rushes to the one as if his life depended on it, and it drives me crazy. OK, he's young, he's newish to the band, and he's slowly getting better. But man, having to pull him back all the time exhausts me. This isn't helped by the fact that our vocalist has the same tendency, something of which he was completely unaware until I made him rehearse to a click track, which he realised was often behind his beat at the beginning of lines. OK, a tight band with all instruments marching to the same beat is important, but it's probably even more important that a band doesn't let the poor timekeeping of one musician wreck the feel and space around the music. PB, what you described above is exactly how I felt when we started playing with this drummer; that is, as if I was the one with bad timing unable to stick to the tempo. It took a lot of patience (and the occasional episode of impatience) to get the rest of the band to do the hard thing and hold back, and in doing so highlight to the drummer that he's rushing the beat, but it's slowly paying off. Be strong dude!

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='gjones' post='1253131' date='Jun 1 2011, 08:35 PM']There was a drummer I used to play with who I would have to watch and wait to see when he hit his snare as he came out of (hopelessly out of time) fills so that we didn't go out of synch when we came back into the song. Another who was so busy hitting his cymbals on weird off beats that he forgot that he was a part of the rhythm section and expected to keep the beat. A good drummer can make or break a band and having to put up with a bad one can make an otherwise good band (and the bass player) sound like amateurs.[/quote]


That sounds just like the drummer of my band I described above

[Pete Academy]

I can't tolerate a bad drummer.

[thepurpleblob]

The thing is, I like the guys in the band. They aren't alcoholics (a new type of musician on me) and learn the songs that they say they are going to (also a new thing). I'm keen to stick with it...

[essexbasscat]

I have noticed over time that there are musicians that appear to have a sense of tempo that can be descibed as an 'inner true North', with little effort required to maintain a pretty constant and even pace. In their hands, tempo is a tool that can be controlled and used at will, slowed down, speeded up, messed about and then returned to the original without much effort.

Then there are others that seem to cling to a tempo like a mountain climber clinging to an ice - covered rockface, terrified to slip at all. Once even tempo is lost, they flay about, like the mountaineer searching for a new toehold.

Others still seem to vary tempo if concentration wanders. Perhaps they're more skilled practioners of our musical mountaineers.

[Heathy]

I would suggest speaking to the drummer and asking him how he thinks that it's going.

Interesting how you get used to someone over time, though. A drummer who I have played in several bands with depped with my current band the other week. The rest of the band commented that he tended to slow down - I've never noticed!!

S**t - does that make me a fraud too?

[Rich]

I must be a really, really lucky man... all the drummers I've ever played with have been rock-solid metronomic groovemeisters. I honestly don't think i could play with a sloppy timekeeper, it'd drive me batsh!t.

[EssentialTension]

I seem to recall an interview with Duck Dunn. He was asked 'Have you ever played with a metronome?'. He replied 'Yeah, Al Jackson'.

Edited June 1, 2011 by EssentialTension

[51m0n]

Suggestion:-

Bass and drums session.

Take a drum machine, set up a clap (not a click or a kick or anything else, make sure its a clap) 4 on the floor, accented hard on 2 and 4.

Record the two of you playing your favourite track.

Set the tempo on the drum machine to your favourite track and play along with it going through the PA, for about ten minutes. Work the changes (verse groove for 2 bars, chorus groove for 2 bars, repeat and rinse)

Turn off the drum machine and re-record the track. Compare the two. You will LOVE the difference this exercise makes!

Go through the entire set like this with the drummer.

Next full rehearsal do the same thing to the whole band.

Keep making the clap on 1 and 4 quieter as you get better at this, it will help the band to swing if they have sole ownership of the one....

I've used this technique with about 3 bands, it always always improves the tightness and subsequently the confidence of the band, although thy will bitch about how hard it is in the beginning.

[BigBassBob]

Some good advice given here, and I'm going to chip in with a resounding "YOU'RE NOT ALONE OR A FRAUD!"

There are drummers who make your life easy and you can have a lot of fun with (you know, that solid snare, the ability to slip into a groove like an old pair of slippers). Then there are drummers who you need to gel with before you get some tasty results. Then there are drummers who will always make gigs difficult and cause a great deal of headaches for the band.

I've had to deal with many cases of the later. Thankfully, my current drummer is of the first variety; nothing flash but damn, he is TIGHT

[MoonBassAlpha]

nothing flash but damn, he is TIGHT

I've found this common amongst drummers too!

[Tengu]

Have you ever been walking down the road alongside someone and found that you have to keep speeding up to stay with them? And then when you tell them to slow down they tell you that they were trying to keep up with you.

It sounds to me as if your drummer is looking to you for the timing and vice versa and subsequently neither of you are taking the lead. If he really does lack some confidence then try to keep your own internal timing consistent and emphasise the start of the bar enough that he can make it out. As he becomes more confident he will rely less on your lead and you can go back to feeling the groove.

My old band used to be all of the place with respect to timing. Fortunately I was confident enough to try to reign them in a bit. I tried to suggest to them that we count the beats so that everyone came in after a break and was told that "real musicians don't count, they just feel when to come back in." I just turned away and muttered under my breath, "I think you will find that real musicians count."

Not once did the solo at the beginning of Sweet Child of Mine go right due to the drummer totally cocking up the timing. Unfortunately it always sounded like me that had got it wrong, despite the fact that I made a point of staring right at him to see when he hit his beat.