Exposed as terrible fraud

[dave_bass5]

I struggle at every gig with my main band, due to the drummer being all over the place and not having any idea about music and what's required.
I also feel like my playing is getting worse sometimes as there really isnt much to play off.
The other band i (used) to play in is completely the opposite, although both bands are very similar, and i get a good work out with the drummer and its very enjoyable.

I should do something about it but my band does have its moments so im not going to walk away from it. Its my choice so if i stay i cant complain (much)

[ern500evo]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='1253178' date='Jun 1 2011, 09:12 PM']The thing is, I like the guys in the band. They aren't alcoholics (a new type of musician on me) and learn the songs that they say they are going to (also a new thing). I'm keen to stick with it...[/quote]

Sometimes it just takes a bit of time. I'm sure at some point most of us have had this problem, i know i have. The drummer in our band now is good, but it just seemed to take us a while to click. We're lucky that our rehearsal room is the back room of my friends pub, so we can just turn up and use it anytime, so we just did a couple of sessions of just the 2 of us and it definitely worked. On the flipside, when our old drummer first joined the band we clicked in about 5 minutes, it just works out like that sometimes.

[JTUK]

Drummers..huh..??

First thing... can he tune the kit and does it sound good from the off?
Is his feel good..? is his time good?
A little latitude there is ok-ish but only bass players will notice, IMO..anymore than that is not good.

If those things are right but his bias is rock and the bass is funk..you might need to find solid middle ground but timing will save all sorts of things as he goes for something and you do as well...
Having to watch him find 1 is not good and something would have to give.


Basic time is basic and the band has no chance of sounding good if it is not there. Groove is something else and more subjective so it helps if the people are on the same page.

We have a group of guys round here that are great, IMO..maybe 4 or 5..and funnily enough they have one or two sons, who at 16 are going to be very good as they have got the basics at that age.
They are looking for gigs and most bands round here should/could find room for them, IMO.

What I would have done for guys like that when I was their age... different world...!!

[Bottle]

I play with two different drummers at our church, both about the same age and stuff, but a fair difference in ability. I do find it easier to lock in with our original drummer, but then she's pretty good at keeping a solid meter, and she has some experience in a recording environment, playing to a metronome or click track. Our other drummer has come on leaps and bounds recently, and has that desire to improve - rehearsals seem to go much better these days since he's been going to the gym to work on his stamina etc.

I find having a real heart to honour those who have made the effort to turn up to rehearsals and to learn the material in their own time makes a big difference, but I know I'm guilty of winging the rehearsals sometimes too :/.

My own personal practice involves learning some new songs with a bit of noodling in between, nothing really structured TBH. I haven't felt that this has held me back terribly, but I could do with a more disciplined approach to practice, especially if I'm the reason why some songs take longer to get down.

I like the idea of just drums 'n' bass for a practice session - bit difficult to arrange outside of the normal rehearsal schedule - but it could be good for both of the drummers and for me and the other bassist.

HTH,
Ian

[scottkincaid]

It depends mate, they say that the bassist and drummer are the two most important band members, but you should try extra rehearsals or tell him to relax, and let the music flow, because you need to make it easy for each other really

[jezzaboy]

Nah PB, your no fraud! I think you can see a pattern from most of the replies. Our drummer is a bit eratic, speeding up and slowing down. Last year we had to use a dep for one gig and the guy we used from a local band called the Red Zephyrs, was rock solid and had a supeb touch, throwing in fills that really made a differance without overplaying. A real joy to play with.

Next gig, back to old drummer! A man who starts a song at one speed then slows down or speeds up. Have a chat with the guy and as suggested, try and get him in the studio for a session and work it out.

Don`t doubt yourself man, that`s what the rest of the band are for

Jez

[Monckyman]

Also, this is a learning experience for all.
Half the reason for being in bands, is to learn from the other members.
You have more experience, the drummer should learn from you.
Finding a way to explain what you think without him getting narked will be the hardest bit, after that it`s just working on the problem till it isn`t one anymore.
One tip I remember from various producers was to mic the kick drum so everyone can hear it.
Not massive need a bigger P.A levels, just so you all use it to time to.
Usually nobody really gets it till they record and all of a sudden realise what the kicks been doing.
So mic it and work on sticking to it.

I recently had this experience but with a keys player. he was just winging the tunes, obviously hadn`t listened to them at all out of rehearsal time, and had no timbres /patches thought out either.
To make things worse he had a Triton and an M50 and was using them for "a piano" and "some brass".. on everything, whether the tunes used those sounds or not.
I went with this for about 3 weeks of two reh a week, and then read the riot act.
He should be programming patches to match the covers says I, he has two multi timbral workstations and only uses two sounds says I.WTF says I.
Turns out he never had anyone tell him off and didn`t know how to use the deeper functions of the synths.
So,I downloaded the manual for the triton, read it, and offered to help him program up some Combi sounds that would help him layer up and play more complicated parts.
he loved it, responded well, and went away and started writing his own patches.
Result, got him inspired to take an interest.
I went from really annoyed to really pleased in a week.
So if you reckon you can bring someones skill or inspiration on, do it.
They`ll appreciate it.
Flip side is the really competent solid drummer who is keeping ME in time and bringing out my best playing.
Good luck with it.

[thepurpleblob]

Thanks everyone... in your own weird ways you have all helped a lot

[ficelles]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='1253089' date='Jun 1 2011, 08:04 PM']For one reason or another I am currently playing on two covers bands.

The first has been playing for about 12 years - 3 years with me. They are all experienced, confident musicians. I am the least experienced by an order of magnitude. The band I played in for a number of years previously to this was pretty much the same. In both cases, I enjoy the playing and mostly find it quite an easy ride.

Now the second, newer band are much less experienced. The drummer in particular is hasn't been playing long and, although he is ok, doesn't have the confidence (and volume) I am used to. The trouble is, I now feed completely exposed. My timing is all over the place and I feel like I have been put back about 5 years. I'm really having to concentrate and put tons of work in to keep up.

What's going on? Is it just an old-fashioned "fitting in" thing or am I being totally carried by the experienced guys in the other band - exposed as a fraud if you will [/quote]

This thread kinds of reminds me of a jazz outfit I depped with a while back... a great bunch but not seasoned giggers; they got a drummer in who apparently had decades of experience, talked the talk, claimed to get regular royalty cheques from past glories, had all the right gear, but couldn't keep time within a verse let alone within a song.

And for that matter I recently played with a young rock drummer who gives drum tuition and is in the middle of a music degree, but cannot keep time.

These guys are out there.

In jazz and folk/roots territory at least I would rather have no drummer than a bad drummer and it is amazing how many drummers cannot keep time and equally amazing how well a band can keep perfect time with no drummer.

ficelles

[JTUK]

Indeed, but these guys get found out pretty quick and that is why you get a reference.

If you know the guys that play..then you'll also know the general level of that circle.

People can say you want to hear this guy and that guy... but things like comfort zone, genre, style, etc etc can all have an effect.
You can't put a 80's shredding genius on a jazzer and expect it to work. It may do, but it may just as well not.

For a start, he'll be following a chart of some sort, 90% of the time, and playing in horn keys and will not be allowed to blast everyones ears ...that is a starter for a train wreck or two..!!!

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='1253135' date='Jun 1 2011, 08:39 PM']I'm not suggesting that the drummer is rubbish or anything. He's not perfect but he makes an effort. He just doesn't have that air of confidence that I think I'm used to. I guess I've been lucky![/quote]

Is it possible the drummer is nervous of your experience and needs some time to settle with you and gain some confidence.

Just a thought ?

Dave

[lojo]

Some drummers I gel with and others I find a struggle to get used to, it doesn't make you a fraud surely, unless your of the opinion unless you can sight read etc etc your not a musician type thinking

Fraud is surely only if you are intentionally misleading someone

Its like team sports, some players you gel with and others you find hard to read and they you at the start

[Doddy]

I'm going to offer a different perspective on this as everyone is blaming the drummer.
You say that now your timing is all over the place-to me that sounds like you need to sit down and
improve that aspect of your playing.Time keeping should not be the sole responsibility of the drummer-
everyone in the band should be able to keep time and if you think that the drummer is not confident
enough then you may have to step up and take charge.If you find your timing is all over the place then
it's going to be detrimental to the whole thing.

[oldslapper]

Drummers should only be let loose in a band once they can play along (in time) to Trans-Island Skyway and nail the single best drum break ever (round about 4:10...)

I know I've benefited from playing with more experienced musicians over the years, so perhaps you can help him?

I like the idea of recording rehearsals then listening to them. Very exposing and uncomfortable at times, but a live recording doesn't lie.

[scalpy]

You might spend hours and hours developing your playing but you can't always produce your top form if the people you are playing with haven't matured that quality that the top players play with- feel, dynamics, space. Experience doesn't always develop this either, you need to be working with musically intelligent people who understand this. Doing lots of dep work, playing in orchestra pits and a ceilidh band with an open line up I know that I can't always bring out my top game if part of my concentration is worrying about and trying to predict what some other musician is trying to do. When I was doing lots of brass work I was extremely lucky, right place right time, and got asked to do a recording session with the Black Dyke Band. I quickly realised once it had started that I was in the situation I had spent years training for, everything was at it should be, and I played the best I ever did. (Not well enough to get a regular gig mind...!) The next week I helped my old youth band, thought I'd walk it due to the previous weekend, and found it really, really difficult, it was like I hadn't progressed since leaving at all. I don't think you're a fraud at all, your concern just demonstrates you're light years ahead of most musicians in that you're listening to your playing, being critical and shouldering the responsibility to improve. You will have to work on the drummer though...