Barefaced Midget-T as PA Head?

[Thurbs]

I have a massive and heavy Peavey PA with 2x15" heads and 2x15" subs. It is a great sound and works well, however a but overkill for a pub and a pain in the arse as I have to borrow a van.

I already have a Midget-T and use it mostly for full monitoring, not just bass.

So, I could buy another Midget-T, screw in some [url="http://www.maplin.co.uk/black-plastic-35-mm-external-top-hat-506490"]Top Hats[/url] and hey presto, some PA hats!

Obviously I would need additional monitoring, but we have other options for that.

Finally, could a compact be used as a sub woofer making the ultimate in flexible lightweight bass and PA rig?

Anyone else done it?

[Happy Jack]

What goes through your PA at a pub gig? Just the vocals?

[charic]

Sounds interesting! Would love to see how that worked out. Although maybe the super12 or the bigone (is that still made?) would make a better sub?

Hmm barefaced PA. Hope your listening Alex!

[ShergoldSnickers]

Couple of Midget -Ts with a [url="http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/dubster.htm"]Dubster[/url] might be able to replace the entire set of Peavy speakers.

Edit: Charic posted just before me and his post wasn't there when I did mine. More good suggestions.

Edited June 2, 2011 by ShergoldSnickers

[Roland Rock]

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/index.php?page=forthcoming-products"]He's on the case[/url]

[Clarky]

Alex contacted me recently to see if I would find a top hat useful as an option on a Midget T, so its clearly something he is thinking about. Best drop him a PM methinks

[ZMech]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1253825' date='Jun 2 2011, 12:39 PM']Couple of Midget -Ts with a [url="http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/dubster.htm"]Dubster[/url] might be able to replace the entire set of Peavy speakers.[/quote]

Just read the blurb for the dubster, I should probably wipe the drool off my desk. Now I just need to join a band to justify it, preferably one that'll earn me £750...

Edited June 2, 2011 by ZMech

[alexclaber]

As Clarky said I've been thinking about offering top-hats as an option on some models - just ordered some whilst stocking up on other parts, so we'll see how they work out. For PA sub use I'd lean towards our Big Series cabs to get high-end PA depth but for live music I'm sure the Compact would go as low as more generic PA subs.

Having had great success with a dual Big Baby T and Baby Sub PA system we're planning to release a PA cab based on the Big Baby relatively soon. I think a pair of them on stands (with no additional subs) will be great for smaller venues or larger venues at more restrained volumes.

[Alec]

However good the bass gear, it's unlikely to make a very good PA. If occasionally put music through a bass amp and, although making it louder, it's rarely very pretty.

More significant are the completely different dispersion patterns that you'll get with good PA kit, helping reduce feedback, and improve audience coverage.

I use RCF ART 700 series active speakers for PA. My monitors are ART 710As which also double as quite a capable mini FOH system if required - 10" + 1" horn, 750W, can deliver 129 dB - and all for only 11kg a unit. Using the right kit for the job will almost always give you a way better result!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Alec' post='1253977' date='Jun 2 2011, 01:52 PM']However good the bass gear, it's unlikely to make a very good PA. If occasionally put music through a bass amp and, although making it louder, it's rarely very pretty.

More significant are the completely different dispersion patterns that you'll get with good PA kit, helping reduce feedback, and improve audience coverage.

I use RCF ART 700 series active speakers for PA. My monitors are ART 710As which also double as quite a capable mini FOH system if required - 10" + 1" horn, 750W, can deliver 129 dB - and all for only 11kg a unit. Using the right kit for the job will almost always give you a way better result![/quote]

This ^ gets my vote.

Must admit, the OP sounds an odd way of going about things....

Having done the rounds with reasonable tops, we then bought something that really puts the vocals on another level sound-wise
and hey presto, the first gig with them, the vocals came across beautifully and went down a storm.
Playing-wise it was as rough as we had been for along time..but wont go into that..and we think the main difference was in the PA.

So, there is a reason why Mackie is a decent benchmark..nowhere near the best, IMV, but perfectly ok...so I would use the stuff that was built for the job.
I agree the sub is less important and just adds depth for the most part but crystal clear tops are an absolute must.

Edited June 2, 2011 by JTUK

[alexclaber]

In terms of sound quality (ie flatness of frequency response, amount of all the different forms of distortion) the Big Series cabs (with the optional tweeter) have quantifiably better performance than the typical PA cabs found in most smaller venues. The polar response is also better through the midrange. For the PA variant there will be a different tweeter and crossover, which will improve the polar response through the treble whilst further flattening the frequency response and lowering the distortion, so they'll compete performance-wise with some of the most expensive PA gear on the market.

The Midget T has lesser fidelity for various reasons but it still sounds far better for PA use than more normal bass cabs do (and many generic PA speakers). One reason is because we care about polar response, which is the downfall of most musical instrument amplification. It won't hit 129dB at the normal measuring distance but it'll certainly play louder than an ART 710a (which looks like a nice speaker despite that overoptimistic spec!)

[LawrenceH]

If the crossover is well-designed and the drivers are of decent quality (those are big ifs) then there's no real difference between a full-range bass cab and a PA cab other than marketing. Both will use PA drivers in a reflex box. It probably won't sound as good as a true high-end PA with systems controller etc but cost-wise it's not a fair comparison.

[Alec]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1254018' date='Jun 2 2011, 01:26 PM']It won't hit 129dB at the normal measuring distance but it'll certainly play louder than an ART 710a (which looks like a nice speaker despite that overoptimistic spec!) [/quote]

Have you heard those ART 710As....? The level & quality they emit is nothing short of astonishing. Even up against the 15" equivalent, they hold their own pretty well, even in the bottom end - not massive extension, but incredibly punchy. And lovely controlled dispersion, with a well designed, and rather large horn.

Though the real stars of the series are the 12" + 2" ART 722As - absolutely glorious.

Like said before, the Mackie actives are ubiquitous and are better than many acts use, but they're by no means top end. Having auditioned many, the ART 700 series is, in my view, about as good as it gets with plastic cabs. You can do better, but the weight & cost goes up an awful lot!

[alexclaber]

I'm not questioning that they sound good, nor that they're loud. But you can't claim 129dB from a direct radiating 10" mid-bass driver with a 2.5" voice coil unless you're fudging the specs!

[Thurbs]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1253998' date='Jun 2 2011, 02:10 PM']This ^ gets my vote.

Must admit, the OP sounds an odd way of going about things....

Having done the rounds with reasonable tops, we then bought something that really puts the vocals on another level sound-wise
and hey presto, the first gig with them, the vocals came across beautifully and went down a storm.
Playing-wise it was as rough as we had been for along time..but wont go into that..and we think the main difference was in the PA.

So, there is a reason why Mackie is a decent benchmark..nowhere near the best, IMV, but perfectly ok...so I would use the stuff that was built for the job.
I agree the sub is less important and just adds depth for the most part but crystal clear tops are an absolute must.[/quote]I think I should probably expand on my thoughts here. I believe a speaker is a speaker and ideally should represent the input as best it can as the output. That way you can control the colouration of any "tone" by changing the signal at the guitar/pedal/pre-amp stage.

I have especially noticed this going from an full Ashdown ABM rig to a pre-amp, PA amp & Midget-T. The ashdown cabs seem to be voiced to add loads of weight to the 80-100Hz frequencies, which give them sound warm, smooth and fat tone (which I loved btw). Fiddling around with a decent EQ I have got the same tone through the PA type set-up, but can also get clean, topsy and any other type of sound I want.

So, if there was a speaker which had a flat response through out the frequency range which was also man enough to double as a bass rig then to me that is a more valuable proposition as I can combine budgets and get a higher quality rig. I looked at PA tops but none seem to go low enough. I looked at PA subs but they weigh more than the moon.

I am surprised know one else has done it TBH.

Thanks for everyone's input.

[Alec]

[quote name='Thurbs' post='1255458' date='Jun 3 2011, 01:03 PM']I believe a speaker is a speaker and ideally should represent the input as best it can as the output. That way you can control the colouration of any "tone" by changing the signal at the guitar/pedal/pre-amp stage.[/quote]
Ideally, that would be true, but every speaker cab has its own voicing and character. And, in many cases, you probably wouldn't actually like "flat"

[quote name='Thurbs' post='1255458' date='Jun 3 2011, 01:03 PM']So, if there was a speaker which had a flat response through out the frequency range which was also man enough to double as a bass rig then to me that is a more valuable proposition as I can combine budgets and get a higher quality rig. I looked at PA tops but none seem to go low enough. I looked at PA subs but they weigh more than the moon.[/quote]

PA Subs don't *have* to be that heavy, but most are. You *really* wouldn't want to play bass through most subs alone, though, as their cut-off frequency will typically be way too low.

It's really educational to listen to the different components of a full-range PA, to see what contributes what. The venue I engineer in has a dB Technologies Fifty Line Plus system. 2x18”, 1+15”, 1+10”+1.5” per side. Powered by 5kW.

Run music through just the 18" cabs and you hear little, but feel plenty - most unpleasant. Add in the 15" bass cabs and you get a slightly fatter output, but still can't recognise what you're hearing. All of that comes with the 1" cabs. With bass, you wouldn't want to play through any one of these by itself!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Alec' post='1255111' date='Jun 3 2011, 10:03 AM']Though the real stars of the series are the 12" + 2" ART 722As - absolutely glorious.[/quote]

They're also a grand each! High end kit is better, but you pay for it.

[JTUK]

I think you need to put your money into the vocals ...if it doesn't work there, it will be all uphill which is why I wouldn't want any compromise, personally.

[charic]

Just a quick tuppence

Just remember flat isn't always "nice". Hence why most loudspeaker systems aren't designed flat they're designed to flatter.

Most people will pick flattering speakers over accurate ones and live your pitching to the audience (unlike in a studio).

[markstuk]

Having run my keyboards through my super 12 T I can confirm that it sounds better than a Mackie 1521Z... Keyboards need something very close to hi-fi reproduction in order to reproduce (for instance) a steinway piano sample in a faithful way..

Edited June 6, 2011 by markstuk