More fun on the eBay!

[vmaxblues]

I am no MM expert, other than owning a few over time, this one looks all wrong, sorry for the guy having been conned, why has he not got this resolved through Ebay or Trading standards?

But for what it is worth regarding the neck:

A) The headstock is the wrong shape, the 'kosher' one has slilghtly sharper edges.
The string retainer is normally between the D and the G, not between the A and the D.
C) The tuners are not correct, the diameter of the stems are also too narrow.
D) String retainer is not MM pattern.

This aint what it is reporting to be.

[ficelles]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1259264' date='Jun 7 2011, 07:35 AM']The neck is not even close if your mate wants to compare it with any version from 1982-2010 I have them all in my house. He has been had tough luck I feel bad for him yet we now know numerous people have told him about the neck but still it appears he and you feel It's real? Send pics to EBMM and get proper confirmation then. That listing needs updating properly or reporting to eBay [/quote]

Firstly I have no personal opinion on the neck - I wouldn't have a clue about Music Man instrument, have never owned one, never will as they don't appeal to me.

Secondly the listing states it's a copy but then in the text repeats the info [u]provided by Music Man[/u]. There is no intention to mislead. Only a moron would think the listing was attempting to pass that guitar off as something it isn't.

As for numerous people telling him about the neck, well if it were me I would go with the elicited opinion of the manufacturer rather than unsolicited interference from a lot of self-styled "experts". And I am sure fleabay would do the same.

ficelles

[ficelles]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1257186' date='Jun 5 2011, 11:02 AM']If he bought that as a genuine Ray I will eat my hat [/quote]

Oh nearly forgot about this - he (not being an MM expert) did buy it as genuine. So get your hat ready for dinner.

ficelles

[BB3000S]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259474' date='Jun 7 2011, 12:18 PM']Firstly I have no personal opinion on the neck - I wouldn't have a clue about Music Man instrument, have never owned one, never will as they don't appeal to me.

Secondly the listing states it's a copy but then in the text repeats the info [u]provided by Music Man[/u]. There is no intention to mislead. Only a moron would think the listing was attempting to pass that guitar off as something it isn't.

As for numerous people telling him about the neck, well [b]if it were me I would go with the elicited opinion of the manufacturer rather than unsolicited interference from a lot of self-styled "experts"[/b]. And I am sure fleabay would do the same.

ficelles[/quote]
Fair play mate, I'd probably do so too. But please realize that the "manufacturer statement" at present is only hearsay for us here - and in addition very much contrary to what us EBMM and Pre-EB MM fan boys believe to be true.
Have to admit I'm really tempted to put up a thread on the EBMM boards asking about this neck.

At the end of the day, these are the internetz - everyone has an opinion they're convinced is the right one.

[dc2009]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259474' date='Jun 7 2011, 11:18 AM']Secondly the listing states it's a copy but then in the text repeats the info [u]provided by Music Man[/u]. There is no intention to mislead. Only a moron would think the listing was attempting to pass that guitar off as something it isn't.[/quote]

From Jean-Luc: "the title is still unacceptable even with the word 'copy' thrown in. It is against ebays rules to use a brand name in the title to describe a product which is not made by that manufacturer."

The copy bit means it needs reporting, unless the info from Musicman is genuine, if so:

I think a printscreen of the email from EBMM would serve as proof, given it will have come from an EBMM address, and not [email protected]
If he shows that, he might stand a chance of selling it for a lot more too, look how many people are interested here, why not just do that and avoid all this fuss?

[ficelles]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1259551' date='Jun 7 2011, 12:15 PM']From Jean-Luc: "the title is still unacceptable even with the word 'copy' thrown in. It is against ebays rules to use a brand name in the title to describe a product which is not made by that manufacturer."[/quote]

There are several thousand musical instrument listings that need to be reported then! I particularly hate the "Gibson Les Paul by TangleVintage" style usage.

Martin's ad title is clear - it's a [u]copy[/u] of a MusicMan Stingray. You can't identify the original without using the brand name in this instance.

Anyway I am seeing him later so will offer (in the event that it doesn't sell) to take the thing apart and post detailed pics in here. Assuming he hasn't got totally put off by all the b/s re this listing and burnt it.

ficelles

[dc2009]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259594' date='Jun 7 2011, 12:51 PM']There are several thousand musical instrument listings that need to be reported then! I particularly hate the "Gibson Les Paul by TangleVintage" style usage.

Martin's ad title is clear - it's a [u]copy[/u] of a MusicMan Stingray. You can't identify the original without using the brand name in this instance.

Anyway I am seeing him later so will offer (in the event that it doesn't sell) to take the thing apart and post detailed pics in here. Assuming he hasn't got totally put off by all the b/s re this listing and burnt it.

ficelles[/quote]

I know it's clear, but I'm saying it's not allowed. I know there are plenty of other listings that do the same, and I wish ebay did a better job of covering it, largely because I don't want all the crap that comes up when you try and search for something decent!

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259594' date='Jun 7 2011, 12:51 PM']Assuming he hasn't got totally put off by all the b/s re this listing and burnt it.[/quote]
The only BS is in the ebay listing suggesting that the neck *may* be genuine.

The listing title *now* says it is a copy, but it is was originally listed as being a musicman bass, but he got rumbled and changed it. It still says *brand: musicman* in the item specifics box, which is untrue, so by definition a lie.

I am having difficulty understanding the weasly-worded assertion that the neck appears to be *kosher*. I don't agree that this means I'm *a moron* but I would appreciate peoples' opinions on what they think that line means:
[list=1]
[*]He believes it to be a genuine musicman neck but can't prove it
[*]He believes it to be a genuine musicman neck and can prove it
[*]He knows it is not a genuine musicman neck, but it looks like one from a distance if you squint
[*]He knows it is not a genuine musicman neck, but is hoping for someone as uninformed as he was to take a punt
[*]A Rabbi say it's OK to eat it?
[*]Something else
[/list]

Edited June 7, 2011 by Jean-Luc Pickguard

[Toasted]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259216' date='Jun 7 2011, 01:03 AM']Ok kiddo, this seller happens to be a close friend and he ain't lyin' re the neck info. You want to talk about it, maybe come and see me.[/quote]

You sound so tough!

Threats on an internet forum are so funny. You might as well write your words in a children's birthday card with a big cuddly bear on it and a balloon in its hand, it'd be more intimidating.

[i]ntrntz, srs bsns.[/i]

[ficelles]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1259668' date='Jun 7 2011, 01:45 PM']He believes it to be a genuine musicman neck but can't prove it[/quote]

Exactly, based on the response from EBMM. He originally believed the person who he bought it from's claim that the whole thing was genuine but was later told otherwise, presumably by someone who knows MM basses.

I'd be careful using that word "lie" in print btw. Just sayin'.

ficelles

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259720' date='Jun 7 2011, 02:25 PM']I'd be careful using that word "lie" in print btw. Just sayin'.

ficelles[/quote]

Why?

[quote]Brand: Musicman[/quote]
I'm using this definition of Lie: To convey a false image or impression

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Lets see this response from EBMM if it exists

[dc2009]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1259749' date='Jun 7 2011, 02:50 PM']Lets see this response from EBMM if it exists[/quote]

Agreed, like I said, a print screen of a genuine e-mail will suffice I'm sure. And it is worth your guy doing (rather than burning the thing) if he is telling the truth because then he stands to make a coupla hundred quid out of it, if not, I doubt people will buy it, even at that price,

[ficelles]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1259747' date='Jun 7 2011, 02:50 PM']Why?[/quote]

It's called Libel. Look it up.

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1259747' date='Jun 7 2011, 02:50 PM']I'm using this definition of Lie: To convey a false image or impression[/quote]

[u]If[/u] it's a MusicMan neck then it's not a false impression, and since the only evidence to the contrary is unsupported opinion based on some fairly low-res pictures, then it's just your opinion, not a fact.

Anyway can I just say how wonderful it is to see so many people in here turn on a fellow musician who has himself been ripped off by someone - who is probably still on fleabay and maybe even in here - and is trying to be fair about selling the item on by giving all the information at his disposal rather than just describing it as it was described to him?

ficelles

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259794' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:17 PM']It's called Libel. Look it up.[/quote]

Its only libel if it is untrue - look it up

[bremen]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1259803' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:26 PM']Its only libel if it is untrue - look it up[/quote]

Whether or not the neck is kosher, the bass can't be described as a MM therefore JLP's defence against a libel charge is watertight.

The seller is risking breaking a fair few laws though, from the Sale of Goods act up. Probably the best thing he could do would be to pull the listing until he's confirmed that the neck is for real then re-list with a more accurate description. Maybe it is a nice instrument, but it's not as described.

Just my £50-an-hoursworth of legal advice ;-)

[Doctor J]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259794' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:17 PM']by giving [b]all[/b] the information at his disposal[/quote]
To be fair, all anyone has asked for is confirmation of the exchange with Ernie Ball and some higher res pics.

[dc2009]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1259815' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:40 PM']To be fair, all anyone has asked for is confirmation of the exchange with Ernie Ball and some higher res pics.[/quote]

Exactly. As I said above, it's not hard to put a print screen up for the sake of a few hundred quid.

[ficelles]

[quote name='bremen' post='1259809' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:32 PM']Whether or not the neck is kosher, the bass can't be described as a MM therefore JLP's defence against a libel charge is watertight.[/quote]

Not really, since M has openly stated that it's a copy body with a neck that MM have said is ok. It's not described as MM, but as a copy with an MM (probably) neck. He's not passing it off. The manufacturer drop-down box selection is only additional to the listing description to aid searching. I think JLP would be struggling myself.

[quote name='bremen' post='1259809' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:32 PM']The seller is risking breaking a fair few laws though, from the Sale of Goods act up. Probably the best thing he could do would be to pull the listing until he's confirmed that the neck is for real then re-list with a more accurate description. Maybe it is a nice instrument, but it's not as described.

Just my £50-an-hoursworth of legal advice ;-)[/quote]

Personally that's what I'd do and I'm going to suggest it to him later. No one would buy it if they'd looked in here for sure. Unless of course they secretly knew it was a genuine pre-EB neck and were trying to trash the sale price...

Incidentally if you follow the Wikipedia MusicMan Stringray article's link to a "example of a vintage Stingray" it leads to pics of an instrument with identical headstock logo and 4-bolt neck plate, only leaving the string guard placement and question on the sharpness of the point up from the G tuner as casting doubt, well to my unexpert eyes anyway. Actually another look shows the skunk stripe, anyway is that link showing a fake or a real pre-EB MM?

ficelles

Edited June 7, 2011 by ficelles

[ficelles]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1259877' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:18 PM']Exactly. As I said above, it's not hard to put a print screen up for the sake of a few hundred quid.[/quote]

Has anyone asked Martin or are you just asking me? I don't have the email (I'm assuming it was an email), and while I'm happy to defend a friend in here as he doesn't read forums to my knowledge I'm not running around gathering evidence... if you want to see it, contact him through fleabay and ask if he's got a written response from MM and can add it to the listing.

ficelles

[ficelles]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1259886' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:31 PM']He has said MM has said it's okay but surely Musicman no longer exist and it would be Ernie Ball he would have to contact.[/quote]

Indeed - for MM read EBMM.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1259886' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:31 PM']If I'm following the same link. The pictures show a skunk strip on the neck.[/quote]

Yeah I noticed that just after I posted. Looking at other examples online the heel on Martin's doesn't look quite right, could maybe just be that the fitting into the (undeniably copy) body is different though. Seems like the only way it could be genuine is if it's an EBMM neck with a pre-EB logo.

Either way I bet he wishes he'd never bought it...

ficelles

Edited June 7, 2011 by ficelles

[dc2009]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259885' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:29 PM']Has anyone asked Martin or are you just asking me? I don't have the email (I'm assuming it was an email), and while I'm happy to defend a friend in here as he doesn't read forums to my knowledge I'm not running around gathering evidence... if you want to see it, contact him through fleabay and ask if he's got a written response from MM and can add it to the listing.

ficelles[/quote]

I'm not interested in it, and therefore haven't asked the guy to see it. I just thought it seemed like a logical idea to bring up, as it can prove or disprove his case and perhaps someone on here will get the neck they want, your mate will get a coupla hundred nicker, and saves you fighting his corner on here - conversely if it doesn't exist, it gives any of the people here the right to report the listing to ebay. I assumed you were relating most of this to him, and I would also assume he is aware that a print screen of the email (or photo of the letter) whatever, will prove that EBMM do say it's a MM neck, and stand him in good stead to get the money he deserves for it!

In this guys defence, if the neck is as old as he's essentially saying it is, it could quite easily have been sanded down at the head end, or modified in various ways, especially if it's been put onto another bass.

[BB3000S]

Ok, so I couldn't restrain myself from asking our friends on the EBMM forum about this: [url="http://www.ernieball.com/forums/music-man-basses/50001-ebay-stingray-copy-supposedly-ernie-ball-music-man-confirmed-real-ernie-ball-music-man-neck.html"]http://www.ernieball.com/forums/music-man-...c-man-neck.html[/url]
Clearly this whole thread is growing out of proportion, but hey that's what we do on the internet sometimes.

Edited June 7, 2011 by BB3000S

[stingrayPete1977]

OK lets clear this up
Pre EB or EBMM Fails,

A- Pre EB fretboards have [b]no fret marker at the 21st fret [/b]FAIL
B- Fretted pre EB's are maple with very few rosewoods known unless fretless FAIL
C-Pre EB necks have a skunkstripe FAIL
D-The string tree is across the wrong strings FAIL
E-The fret markers are way to small for any era of Ray FAIL
F- The tuning pegs are too small for any era of neck FAIL
G- The tip of the headstock is far too blunt for either version FAIL
H- No bullet truss rod FAIL
J- No gloss finish on the neck FAIL
K- Wrong profile of neck FAIL
L- Wrong heel on neck FAIL
M- The logo is in the wrong place for either early (Level with the G tuner bezel) or later (Lower down like the ebay one but level with the headstock edge not sloped)FAIL
N- It would have proper jumbo vintage frets with flat tops FAIL

EB only Fails,
A- It has no wheel of fortune at the heel end if its as new as it looks 1990 ish or newer FAIL
B-The logo is wrong as thats for a pre EB and almost certainly fake too FAIL
C- No decal on the rear of the headstock FAIL
Self styled expert or not its totally fake so get the words "appears to be [b]kosher" [/b]out of the listing or remove it end of arguement mate

There is no way EBMM have said that its kosher what they may of said is "we dont know it could be but we didnt make and have no records for pre EB goods" I dare say even the girl in the office at EBMM could tell you why its not right though.

Silly threats are one thing but your suggestion of us fellow musicians coming down hard after he got ripped off is out of order whilst it still up there as the neck appears to be kosher IT IS NOT!

[b]FYI all of the points I have listed can be confirmed by me by looking at the basses in this room right now and as a self styled expert (Should that go In my sig or not?) I feel im in a pretty good position to comment having every version right here right now?[/b]

Edited June 7, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1259879' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:22 PM']No one would buy it if they'd looked in here for sure. Unless of course they secretly knew it was a genuine pre-EB neck and were trying to trash the sale price...[/quote]

Busted