Credit where ir's due

[derrenleepoole]

It's simple - there's electric bass playing before Jaco, and there's electric bass playing after. Love him or loathe him as aplayer, he's the figurehead of the instrument we all love to play.

Thanks for sharing Bilbo, always a pleasure, never a chore

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1260169' date='Jun 7 2011, 07:51 PM']what are the cello suites then? some baritone... some bass.... 100% solo[/quote]

Still not 30 min bass solos as i already stated.

I said it in jest really but i do really find Jaco's (and the like) playing very, very boring.

Edited June 7, 2011 by dave_bass5

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1260250' date='Jun 7 2011, 08:46 PM']Still not 30 min bass solos as i already stated.[/quote]
I think they are exactly 30 min and longer bass/baritone register solos, different instrument granted, but my point is that I like to listen to music on merit and won't rule anything out because it's a _____ solo (insert appropriate item, could be a cucumber for all I care)

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1260250' date='Jun 7 2011, 08:46 PM']I said it in jest really but i do really find Jaco's (and the like) playing very, very boring.[/quote]
that's a different matter entirely and I have absolutely no problem with an individual expressing choice and taste, I do have a problem when people won't leave it at subjective and go on to proclaim that their view guarantees that something is... sh*t, mediocre or amazing according to their taste. I wasn't suggesting that you were btw, just making my view known for the general sake of the thread

Edited June 7, 2011 by jakesbass

[TPJ]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1260093' date='Jun 7 2011, 06:58 PM']No rhythm? Yeah. Like a train A lot of popular music is based around a definitive and explixit beat. Boom, Whack, boom, whack, boom whack. All beat and no grove. Listen to Bach. No beat there either.[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree, todays music is just a different groove.

What you (general you, not specific) might try to understand is what Jaco did at the time was new, nobody was doing that sort of thing on electric bass. Looking back on it can be difficult as so much has happened musically since then, it may make it harder to appreciate. Jaco is an influence on a lot of todays music whether you hear it or not.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1259779' date='Jun 7 2011, 03:04 PM']It's fine not to like it, to suggest it's without rhythm is just incorrect, granted it's a rhythmic language with which you may not be familiar, but it has great time, great poise and great musical expression. That it doesn't reach a large number of people is immaterial, it's still greatness.[/quote]


Very well put.

[peteb]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1260093' date='Jun 7 2011, 06:58 PM']I don't care if some don't like it. Its beautifully executed.

No rhythm? Yeah. Like a train A lot of popular music is based around a definitive and explixit beat. Boom, Whack, boom, whack, boom whack. All beat and no grove. Listen to Bach. No beat there either.[/quote]
Nothing wrong with a backbeat - it forms the foundation of 90% of the music that I love and to say that Chic, AC/DC, etc have no goove is just plain wrong!

However there has to be room for the other 10%........

[wombatboter]

I used to be a huge Jaco-fan...I had a lot of cd's, bootlegs, special editions, etc..
Recently I moved and I went through a pile of cd's of which I had to decide "keep them or not".
I threw a lot of Jaco-stuff away since I hardly listen to it anymore since a couple of years..
It strikes me more and more that I'm really fond of beautiful fretless melodies that linger on and which you can remember after hearing them twice..
The problem I have with Jaco is clear to me in the first video...I can't remember a thing he played, it's a stream of notes which seem to have no connection and come out random..
It's a problem I encounter a lot in his playing, he played like he was : he had a mental illness and it reflected in his playing : impulsive, wild, rarely well-structured...moments of greatness but also moments of "empty" notes which don't mean a thing..
I'm not too fond of Jaco as a composer, except for Continuum and Three views of a Secret, not a lot still touches me..
I cherish the Jaco as a bass-player in a supportive role : "Refuge of the roads" (perhaps the best fretless of all time (and I can hum every line)), "A Remark you Made" or "Bright Size Life".
I can't listen to the unstable Jaco anymore...he lacked melodies when he played fast (I prefer the solos of Jeff Berlin which are musical even when he's going fast)and he jumped from one spot to another, bringing in pauzes which broke the fluidity and made it even more fragments without something to hang on to..
Maybe I'm not Jazz-cat enough, could be..

[ficelles]

My favourite Jaco album is actually Joni Mitchell's Hejira... Jaco's playing on that is superb and I reckon enhanced by the fact the album is centered around Joni's songs rather than his playing. If you haven't heard it, it's worth a listen. The way Jaco drives the opening track is dynamic.

Just noticed wombatboter referenced Refuge Of The Roads in the post above - that's the final track on Hejira. Coyote is the opener.

ficelles

Edited June 8, 2011 by ficelles

[thisnameistaken]

Say what you like about Jaco but he was a total one-off, he had an original sound, he dropped jaws without resorting to gimmicks, novelty techniques and party pieces, he had a musicality that very few players ever get near.

He really carved his own niche and I have massive respect for him for that. I don't dig everything he did but even the stuff I don't like is often compelling because he puts so much of himself into it.

[slobluesine]

The 'Sid Vicious of Jazz'
Bill Milkowski's book is a great read btw
[url="http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/598987.Jaco"]http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/598987.Jaco[/url]

[Count Bassy]

I'll take peoples word for it that he was one of the greats, but these two examples, to me are just dull.
What is the point of having all that talent if this is what you do with it?

I listened to the first all the way through. I intended to listen to all of the second as well, but got half way through and thought 'stuff this, life's too short'.

Sorry, but I really really don't like this stuff.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Count Bassy

[toneknob]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1261307' date='Jun 8 2011, 03:14 PM']My favourite Jaco album is actually Joni Mitchell's Hejira... Jaco's playing on that is superb and I reckon enhanced by the fact the album is centered around Joni's songs rather than his playing. If you haven't heard it, it's worth a listen. The way Jaco drives the opening track is dynamic.

Just noticed wombatboter referenced Refuge Of The Roads in the post above - that's the final track on Hejira. Coyote is the opener.

ficelles[/quote]

Agreed - Hejira is fantastic, although Jaco only plays on four tracks - as well as Refuge, he's on the title track, Coyote and Black Crow.

Better vfm in the Jaco/Joni stable is Shadows And Light, where the band is just blisteringly good. Jaco, Metheny, Brecker, Don Alias, Lyle Mays. Here's Jaco's solo from one of the Hejira shows - audio only, but some good pics making up the vid. Check out the "thumbs up" at about 4m50s. I can't do that.



The Hejira on S&L is fantastic - although I'm sure there's a huge bum note at one point.

Edited June 8, 2011 by toneknob

[risingson]

As someone who doesn't really love bass guitar 'soloing', I totally 'get' Jaco Pastorius, I think (know) he was an innovator and a genius. I also know that he's like marmite on these kinds of forums and of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think it's quite impossible to deny his impact on the bass guitar. He was like Hendrix except jazz-inflicted: controversial, totally unique and widely imitated.

[wombatboter]

He was great but he had his flaws..
One of the most striking things I have ever read came from one of the children of Joe Zawinul (he took his children on tour and they saw the show every night) : "Daddy, why is Jaco playing the same thing every night ?" (referring to the solo-spot of Jaco). I started to dislike his manierisms, a musician (however great he is) who's on routine is boring..
This is the Jaco I adore...

[peteb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1261339' date='Jun 8 2011, 03:37 PM']Say what you like about Jaco but he was a total one-off, he had an original sound, he dropped jaws without resorting to gimmicks, novelty techniques and party pieces, he had a musicality that very few players ever get near.

He really carved his own niche and I have massive respect for him for that. I don't dig everything he did but even the stuff I don't like is often compelling because he puts so much of himself into it.[/quote]
What he said - spot on

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='1261363' date='Jun 8 2011, 03:53 PM']What is the point of having all that talent if this is what you do with it?[/quote]

Sorry but I find your comment more than a bit lame. These carefully chosen pieces clearly show what talent he had. If you don't 'get it' that's absolutely fine, not a reflection on your worth or value whatsoever but please don't stand in judgement of something you're brain isn't wired to appreciate.

I was listening to Hejira today and Refuge of the Roads is a great illustration of Jaco's less is more playing.

Peter

Edited June 8, 2011 by GreeneKing

[Pete Academy]

Apart from his solo stuff, his groove was amazing.

[Bilbo]

Jaco was, in many ways a lick player. If you listen to a lot of his stuff, you will eventually hear his cliches. But his take on the bass was very much from the perspective of a musician not a bass player. He played stuff that noone else could touch. By the time he was getting ill, he wouldn't have been practising and his ideas would have started to get stale. But from 1976 to about 1980, he was carving something special. His cliches have a rock sensibility; they are based on entertainment not music. He wasn't a hardcore improvising jazz musician as such but he was a creative guy who, when allowed to, was capable of greatness. He pitched a whole load of new concepts at bass players, most of which are still being processed by most of us today. I think it is important to respect what he did and not what he didn't and not what he became.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1261493' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:31 PM']Jaco was, in many ways a lick player. If you listen to a lot of his stuff, you will eventually hear his cliches.[/quote]
There are a lot of players who are far more guilty of this than Jaco IMO, Stanley Clarke being the king of them.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1261493' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:31 PM']Jaco was, in many ways a lick player. If you listen to a lot of his stuff, you will eventually hear his cliches.[/quote]


To be honest this is true of a lot of the greats,
They just manage to store thousands more than the average soloist, that gets them from A to B.
Not all of course.



Garry

[Chris2112]

I have always loved Jaco, but I've never liked Portrait of Tracy. It falls completely flat after about 30 seconds.

[4000]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1261505' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:41 PM']There are a lot of players who are far more guilty of this than Jaco IMO, Stanley Clarke being the king of them.[/quote]

Yeah, but I prefer his cliches. And his tone.

Jaco was a fabulous, creative player, no argument here; a giant amongst electric bassists (although certainly not the only one).

However I have to agree with Wombatboter overall. I never liked his live solo playing; always found it disjointed and not very musical (to my ears). I really don't think he comes across as much of an improviser; his written solos are far better. There are many soloists I prefer. Compositionally I'm not much of a fan either; his music just doesn't speak to me at all. For me Jaco's greatest strength by far was his groove playing and his time.

EDIT: One thing I have to add is that I don't come at Jaco from an "automatic-anti" stance. When I first heard about him some 20-odd years ago (?) I rushed out and bought his 1st album and fully expected it to blow me away. At the same time, in the same record shop, my dad happened to pick up Stan's "brown" album, saying "I've heard he's good". I wasn't really interested, but took both home all the same. I listened to both one after the other, and it was Stan's album that blew me away (it's still my favourite of his). I've tried and tried and tried to get into Jaco's music over the years but it either just leaves me cold or actually slightly unsettles me, with the exception of Okonkole y Trompa which I find quite haunting.

Edited June 8, 2011 by 4000

[risingson]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1261493' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:31 PM']Jaco was, in many ways a lick player. If you listen to a lot of his stuff, you will eventually hear his cliches.[/quote]

I kind of agree, however most musicians have their go-to licks that make them sound one of a kind. The difference between someone who just recycles old licks from other players and someone like Jaco was that they were his licks, unique to him and whilst clearly influenced by other musicians, they were of his own construction and were his own brainchild. I love hearing how he had an uncanny ability to leave his hallmark on so many records, even as a sideman as well. James Jamerson used to do the same, those passing notes he used as stepping stones to get to chordal notes was a technique so widely reused but the way he played it made him unique.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='4000' post='1261562' date='Jun 8 2011, 06:16 PM']Yeah, but I prefer his cliches. And his tone.

Jaco was a fabulous, creative player, no argument here; a giant amongst electric bassists (although certainly not the only one).

However I have to agree with Wombatboter overall. I never liked his live solo playing; always found it disjointed and not very musical (to my ears). I really don't think he comes across as much of an improviser; his written solos are far better.[/quote]

And herein lies the truth, that Jaco never was much of an improviser. He could improvise if he wanted to but he always came back to those licks we know, progressions he was familiar with. That was where his sound lay. He much prefered being able to write a solo out, and being able to take time in the studio to get the best cut. For example, the legendary solo in Havona is, IIRC, three separate takes spliced into one.

Jaco was really more about composition and arragnement than playing. He even said so himself, when he remarked that that ill-fated steel drum album he had composed was the best thing he had ever written. I get the impression he spent far longer writing and arranging than he did just playing bass, and that he found that much more enjoyable too. It simply happened that he had learned to play bass to a good standard, so that was where he stayed!

FWIW, I thought Joe Zawinul was a better composer, although having Jaco onboard in Weather Report was a boon for them since Anthony Jackson turned them down!

[Pete Academy]

Jaco's debut solo album is the finest bass album ever. I have to disagree with you, Chris...Portrait Of Tracy is an unbelievable piece of music.

My opinion, of course.