Compressors, do i need one?

[jonunders]

Thanks for your comments to date, some really useful information given. As I have only been playing for around 18 months i am always working on my technique.

[cheddatom]

I'd say no-one [i]needs[/i] a compressor, but most bassists could do with a limiter.

Personally, I like to blend clean, with squishy, with overdrive, and put the lot through a limiter.

[alexclaber]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Read what Simon's written.

For now I'd focus on actively practising your dynamics. Play a riff with your normal plucking loudness - define that as mf. Then play that same riff as loud as you can whilst still sounding good - define that as ff. Then as quietly as you can - define that as pp. Then find the in between loudnesses, p and f. Now practice playing that riff going from pp to p to mf to f to ff. Then the reverse. Then swap between p and f. Then swap from mf to ff back to mf then to pp and repeat. Then swap between pp and ff.

Once you have a feel for that work through your entire set consciously switching between each of your five loudnesses depending on what the song needs at that moment.

Learn to play the dynamics! Don't forget about accents as well.

[xgsjx]

Is that p--- --f?

[algmusic]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1260833' date='Jun 8 2011, 10:08 AM']Short answer: No.

Long answer: Read what Simon's written.

For now I'd focus on actively practising your dynamics. Play a riff with your normal plucking loudness - define that as mf. Then play that same riff as loud as you can whilst still sounding good - define that as ff. Then as quietly as you can - define that as pp. Then find the in between loudnesses, p and f. Now practice playing that riff going from pp to p to mf to f to ff. Then the reverse. Then swap between p and f. Then swap from mf to ff back to mf then to pp and repeat. Then swap between pp and ff.

Once you have a feel for that work through your entire set consciously switching between each of your five loudnesses depending on what the song needs at that moment.

Learn to play the dynamics! Don't forget about accents as well.[/quote]

+1

Couldn't have said it better.. and this rule is for ALL genres!!!

[dc2009]

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1260774' date='Jun 8 2011, 09:28 AM']Now slightly OT but please bear with me.

I was recently down visiting Phil Nixon at the wonderful Bassgear.co.uk and having a go on a luvverly Avella Coppolo ( hope I've got the spelling correct - too many sets of double letters!!! ) and this very topic came up. He reckoned the AC's really sang later in the set as he was digging in a bit more. I normally play with a light touch ( arthritis makes anything else a very real pain ) but on Sat's gig really went for it and crikey but it sounded very different. So what am laboriously trying to say is that digging in ain't necessarily a bad thing at all. It can actually bring out the signature tones of some basses as I have now heard for myself.

S for Stewart - not Softie[/quote]

Interesting. I play a Warwick mainly, which gets ever so throaty when you dig in, properly growling at you if you give it some oomph. And now with one thunderbird soon to be joined by another, I'm not exactly mr jazz, but perhaps I should learn to be.

IMO I do think what bass you play affects how much you dig in though. I once had a few practices on an all graphite status, and I played that thing in a featherlight sort of way, it was all it was asking for, beautiful, crystal clear sound too.

[SteveK]

Never used a compressor on stage, and don't envisage ever using one.
It's possible that one or two FOH engineers we've used over the years may have used one, but that's up to them.

[LukeFRC]

I used to record myself on garageband or something similar, then you can visually see how out of control your playing is. It feels good to be able to record a song perfectly without anything getting out of hand.

I also play with a heavy touch but think that how you attack the strings is important. Dig in on certain beats and suddenly you have a groove going.

[mcnach]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1260341' date='Jun 7 2011, 09:42 PM']+1

Finally the first person to actually agree that a compressor usually doesn't solve the actual problem[/quote]


ok, I will jump in now that's becoming fashionable

I bought one early on mostly to even up my slap playing. A Boss LMB3 helped (a limiter, not a compressor), but wasn't a magic solution. It helped, but I didn't always liked what it did.
Playing without a compressor and getting used to playing at gig volume DID help me improve my technique and play more evenly.

Right now I do use a compressor, the one built in my amplifier. But I use it at a fairly moderate setting, just to tidy up *a bit* and give it a rounder sound, instead than correcting my technique (which I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means! ). In this situation, the comrpessor is nice... but I don't *need* it. When I use somebody else's amp, I have no compressor in my board so I do without (and if their head has it, I turn it off as I am not familiar with how that one works).

So... I wouldn't say you need one, and suggest instead you simply keep at it and practice. In my case, practicing loudly helped me, as when you play quietly at home you can get away with a lot and then you turn up and you find you're all over the place: practice loud if you can.
But get on of you want to. It can be a useful tool and it's nice to familiarise yourself with what it does and what it can do etc.

[LawrenceH]

I don't disagree with the thrust of Simon's comments on this thread, but as a soundman I have frequently used a compressor to even out playing due to a dodgy technique, especially for those types of bands that pogo around shouting like mentalists when they play. For that I use much faster attack/release times, and a threshold of around 4:1 with a soft knee set so it's just biting on a slightly quieter than average note.
Not perfect and decent technique is preferable but it does save the day sometimes.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1260774' date='Jun 8 2011, 09:28 AM']SIMON - how do you rate the built in compressors on the TC amps? I'm not sure they have limiters built in too. Your post made very good sense regarding only using compressors and limiters together, first time I have heard that. Must do more research.

S for Stewart - not Softie[/quote]

TC built in compressors are their three band jobbies aren't they.

I've only had a 30 minute play with one of their heads, TC450, and certainly didnt get to real extent that you can muck about with the compressor beyond its simplest settings (like, on, and how on you want it I think). Its a pretty good effort at a transparent multiband digital compressor, but the metering was pretty nonexistent (as far as I could tell), which makes it very very hard to know whats going on really. Multiband compressors need meters for each individual band, that takes up masses of real estate on the facia which just is not available on those amps. Dont know if they have any kind of limiter built in either, they certainly might have though.

Do they work? Yes, can you tell how hard they are working? Not easily!

[51m0n]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1262098' date='Jun 8 2011, 11:31 PM']I don't disagree with the thrust of Simon's comments on this thread, but as a soundman I have frequently used a compressor to even out playing due to a dodgy technique, especially for those types of bands that pogo around shouting like mentalists when they play. For that I use much faster attack/release times, and a threshold of around 4:1 with a soft knee set so it's just biting on a slightly quieter than average note.
Not perfect and decent technique is preferable but it does save the day sometimes.[/quote]

I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has.

I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting.

You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation.

I think we are saying the same thing really

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1263005' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:00 PM']I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has.

I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting.

You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation.

I think we are saying the same thing really [/quote]
Oi! You! Get back to your honeymoon!!

Hope you had a fantastic day mate! I've left you well alone so you get some peace from all the music, and I find you on here talking about compressors again! Go away and drink wine with your wife

[xgsjx]

I think he's compressed the wife!

BTW when I said I found it took away from my dynamics, I was trying to do what the OP was wanting one for & to get it to have that much effect to try & raise/flatten the notes is going to kill a lot of the dynamics (that's basically what he's trying to achieve in a way I suppose). & they was all sub £150 comps that I was using.

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='1263015' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:07 PM']Oi! You! Get back to your honeymoon!!

Hope you had a fantastic day mate! I've left you well alone so you get some peace from all the music, and I find you on here talking about compressors again! Go away and drink wine with your wife [/quote]

Amazing day mate, hottest day of the year so far, lovely food, lovely friends and family, lovely ceremony and lovely car!

I am left with an abundance of wine however (it was too hot a day for heavy drinking) and have momentarily stopped drinking it. I shall get right back to it at once

[51m0n]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1263074' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:55 PM']I think he's compressed the wife!

BTW when I said I found it took away from my dynamics, I was trying to do what the OP was wanting one for & to get it to have that much effect to try & raise/flatten the notes is going to kill a lot of the dynamics (that's basically what he's trying to achieve in a way I suppose). & they was all sub £150 comps that I was using.[/quote]

nope, she's having a nap

Like I said if you are trying to judge it by ear alone then when you really hear he difference solo'ed you'll be squashing the hell out of it all the time, which will sound poo. Set the attack wrong and you really hear whats going on too obviously, set the release wrong and you can get pumping (which is too obvious) dont have a limiter and you cant control the peaks you've let through so that you cant hear how much the compressor is now working.

My Compounder cost me 250-ish off ebay IIRC, I haven't found one cheaper that dos the job really very well yet. Having said that silverfoxnic has a nifty dbx desktop jobbie that cost peanuts and was really usable, so keep a look out for those! Don't think it had a limiter built in though IIRC.

As with all things its the settings as much as the item of kit.

[PauBass]

51m0n very helpful info, thanks!

Quick question, have you had a chance to try the Aguilar TLC?
[url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm"]http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm[/url]

If so what's your opinion? What would you consider to be a good setting with those controls?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1263005' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:00 PM']I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has.

I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting.

You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation.

I think we are saying the same thing really [/quote]

Sure. I think with those types of live bands though, the other artefacts are pretty effectively hidden by the rest of the band! It's the odd notes jumping out and others disappearing that are what an audience will pick up on, and where the compressor does compensate effectively for poor technique. It's never going to work in a jazz settingof course. The most audible aspect of poor technique to be highlighted by compressors is inadequate muting IME.

[73Jazz]

[quote name='PauBass' post='1264099' date='Jun 10 2011, 05:27 PM']51m0n very helpful info, thanks!

Quick question, have you had a chance to try the Aguilar TLC?
[url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm"]http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm[/url]

If so what's your opinion? What would you consider to be a good setting with those controls?[/quote]


here is a really good overview of nearly every comp..the reviewer knows his stuff as well..you may take a read and find some answers or suggestions
[url="http://www.ovnilab.com/"]Ovnilab[/url]

[51m0n]

[quote name='PauBass' post='1264099' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:27 PM']51m0n very helpful info, thanks!

Quick question, have you had a chance to try the Aguilar TLC?
[url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm"]http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm[/url]

If so what's your opinion? What would you consider to be a good setting with those controls?[/quote]

I've not had the pleasure, but it ticks a lot of boxes, not all the controls I'd hope for and no metering (can't think of many or any stompboxes that do). I would expect it to be a decent bit of kit. I'd also try the Markbass Compressore and the JoeMeek FloorQ if you want a full featured stompbox compressor.

[quote name='73Jazz' post='1264464' date='Jun 10 2011, 10:39 PM']here is a really good overview of nearly every comp..the reviewer knows his stuff as well..you may take a read and find some answers or suggestions
[url="http://www.ovnilab.com/"]Ovnilab[/url][/quote]

Yup, ovnilabs is my first port of call if I want an opinion on a compressor I haven't had a go on, or even if I want a second opinion on one I have. Bongomania from TB is the chap behind the site, and he definitely knows his onions.

[51m0n]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1264133' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:51 PM']Sure. I think with those types of live bands though, the other artefacts are pretty effectively hidden by the rest of the band! It's the odd notes jumping out and others disappearing that are what an audience will pick up on, and where the compressor does compensate effectively for poor technique. It's never going to work in a jazz settingof course. The most audible aspect of poor technique to be highlighted by compressors is inadequate muting IME.[/quote]


Agreed! Esp the muting (and fret noise w. newer strings).

A well set up transparent compressor can work wonders in a jazz setting though.

As a very very general rule of thumb I find that lower ratios with lower thresholds are often more transparent than higher ratios with higher thresholds, when achieving the same dB of gain reduction. Not always the case though....

[waynepunkdude]

It's a placebo, it does nothing.

[tauzero]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1260558' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:04 AM']Next point, a compressor without a limiter as well is nigh on useless in a live context.[/quote]
Can a dual compressor (I have a dbx 266xl to hand) be used as a compressor in stage 1 and a limiter in stage 2?

[51m0n]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1269519' date='Jun 15 2011, 12:51 AM']Can a dual compressor (I have a dbx 266xl to hand) be used as a compressor in stage 1 and a limiter in stage 2?[/quote]


It can get close. Output from channel 1 into input from channel 2 for a start, channel 1 is your compressor, channel 2 is you limiter. Bypass channel 1 for now.

A lot of compressors can be set to be rather like a limiter. Its not difficult.

Turn the threshold all the way up (such that nothing is happening)

Turn the attack as fast as possible, we want to catch transients!

Turn the release to be fast.

Turn the ration up to infinity:1

Bring down the threshold until you see some GR action on the meter. A couple or 3 dB would be plenty, you shouldnt really hear it though.

Leave the make-up gain alone, on 0dB.

Now you are catching peaks.

The reason its not a true limiter is the action will be slower than the fastest limiters, and the circuit that senses if a signal has gone over the threshold will be looking at a longer average RMS value typically.

Bypass the compressor n channel 2.

Set up your compressor in fornt of it on channel1, pay attention to the makeup gain, then turn on channel 2 again. You should see channel 2 catching some peaks when you dig in still. You shouldnt hear it.

This is more headroom, at this point you can bring upyour makeup gain on the limiter by maybe half the GR you see on the limiter meter, if you really need to.