Bridge adjustment on through-neck.

[squire5]

[attachment=82053:HBassbridge_001.jpg][attachment=82053:HBassbridge_001.jpg]The bridge on my through neck 5-string is maxed out,with no way to reduce string height.On a bolt-on neck,this could be cured by fitting a shim,but how do you do it on a through-neck?At it's present setting,the action is way too high for my liking,tho' the bass is playable.I had thought of routing out a piece for the bridge to sit in,thereby lowering it,but that might block the string holes at the back.I feel the bridge is too far forward as well,as at the present settings,intonation is not right,and as you can see,the saddles are back nearly as far as they can go.The bass is a 'Harper' branded model,seems hand built,bought through this forum from Zephead.Can anyone think of a way round this ie how to make the bridge more adjustable?(Sorry for the slightly fuzzy pics)Thanx.

[Wil]

First things first, check your truss rod is adjusted correctly - too much relief can cause a high action. Failing that, routing may be the way to go...

[Al Heeley]

Neck relief is the correct way to go, as long as your neck is true. A little bit more tension in the truss rod.
With a well set-up bass you should not need to adjust saddles for string height above the frets, it should be done via small tweaks to the truss rod.
If your neck has pretty low action already then you will have to rout out a few mm to sit the bridge lower.
If you say the bridge feels too far forward then is it the right bridge for the bass? Is it a wrong spec replacement?

[Wil]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='1261116' date='Jun 8 2011, 01:03 PM']Neck relief is the correct way to go, as long as your neck is true. A little bit more tension in the truss rod.
With a well set-up bass you should not need to adjust saddles for string height above the frets, it should be done via small tweaks to the truss rod.
If your neck has pretty low action already then you will have to rout out a few mm to sit the bridge lower.
If you say the bridge feels too far forward then is it the right bridge for the bass? Is it a wrong spec replacement?[/quote]

Sorry but I think this is incorrect - you should set your desired relief with the truss rod, set your intonation and use the bridge saddles to adjust your string height. Using the truss rod to adjust your action can have undesirable consequences - too little relief can cause buzzing near the nut and too much can cause buzzing above the 12th fret for instance.

[Max Normal]

I have this exact bridge on my P-bass! It's a cheap ebay special, I think a copy of a Schaller bridge. The bridge is nice and solid and chunky, but the saddles are HUGE and fat. I had exactly the same problem too on my outside strings. I took two of the old saddles off the fender bridge it was replacing, and they fitted onto the new bridge fine, now no problem. (I don't mind that the saddles don't match, it's an old 1980's very bashed and worn Fender, and I like the tatty look)

So:
Buy a standard fitting fender replacement bridge - it should fit no probs, or get some old fender bridge saddles, they will fit too. Don't do any body routing or f*** with your truss rod until you have tried this!

See attched photo.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Max Normal

[Wil]

Adjusting the truss rod is considerably less hassle than changing the bridge, and it's free, so I'd really advise you try that first

Here's a good quick reference if you're unsure how to do it: [url="http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/setupmanual.html"]http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassm...etupmanual.html[/url]

Edited June 8, 2011 by Wil

[Max Normal]

[quote name='Wil' post='1261155' date='Jun 8 2011, 01:24 PM']Adjusting the truss rod is considerably less hassle than changing the bridge, and it's free, so I'd really advise you try that first [/quote]


Bad advice. You should have the right hardware to begin with, not try to bend delicate bits of your guitar to cater for the wrong hardware. Do it right in the first place or risk damaging your guitar.

[Wil]

[quote name='Max Normal' post='1261158' date='Jun 8 2011, 01:26 PM']Bad advice. You should have the right hardware to begin with, not try to bend delicate bits of your guitar to cater for the wrong hardware. Do it right in the first place or risk damaging your guitar.[/quote]

I'm suggesting that he ensures the truss rod is set correcly - that's not "bending delicate bits of the guitar", it's using the truss rod to do what it's designed to do - set the neck relief.

It takes 5 seconds to check the neck relief, with no tools required.

[Al Heeley]

Have to disagree Wil, but there's more than one way to skin a cat of course. Saddle height should be adjusted to match curvature of the neck radius, of course there must be correct height between 17th or 20th fret and bottom of strings, then the truss rod should be adjusted to tweak a lower (or higher) action - within the boundaries of common sense - excess fret buzz being below the minimum. That's how I do my setups and they are pretty damn slick

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='Wil' post='1261135' date='Jun 8 2011, 01:14 PM']Sorry but I think this is incorrect - you should set your desired relief with the truss rod, set your intonation and use the bridge saddles to adjust your string height. Using the truss rod to adjust your action can have undesirable consequences - too little relief can cause buzzing near the nut and too much can cause buzzing above the 12th fret for instance.[/quote]
+1 however if the bridge is original and the saddle are bottomed out. this would point towards neck relief problems.

Edited June 8, 2011 by lettsguitars

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1261263' date='Jun 8 2011, 02:49 PM']+1 however if the bridge is original and the saddle are bottomed out. this would point towards neck relief problems.[/quote]

Or that you have bought a Kay...

[Max Normal]

This does have different mounting holes to my bridge (seems to have two rows of screws), but the baseplate and saddles look identical, even down to the massively oversized saddles with the horizontal casting marks on them (which I have not seen on any other bridge), I guess these can be pre-drilled to fit a range of different guitars?
I certainly had problems with these type of saddles on my bass (on a bridge was supposedly made for my bass), and my bass plays like a dream with the original saddles (also note the cast baseplate which is much thicker than a sheet metal one, pushing the available adjustment up). It would seem to me that if the trussrod adjustment was so painfully far out that the action could not be lowered any futher, the neck would have a hideously obvious bow to it? You can check that easily with a straight edge (I use a metal ruler edge on). I was assuming that the OP would have been concerned about that first, not the bridge. Of course if could be a combination of both bridge and trussrod, seems doubtful it's trussrod alone to me. anyway I hope he sorts it, I would be more than happy to be wrong if it gets it fixed quick.
I (and obviously you Wil) am more than happy to adjust a truss rod when it needs doing and an easy fix is always good, but I am of the opinion that unless the trussrod is definately wrong, don't touch it as they can take a long time to settle in, so not checking everything, including whether the bridge is any good, before you take a wrench to the neck is bad advice. Also, I'm just saying I have had and remedied exactly the same problem as this with an almost identical bridge (whether the blah blah mounting holes etc) with identical oversized saddles.

[squire5]

[attachment=82098:Harperbass_003.jpg][attachment=82096:Harperbass_002.jpg][attachment=82097:Harperba
ss_004.jpg]Wow,lots to think about.I'll start by saying that the neck relief is fine.Just a normal slight backbow,and nothing to worry about.The bass is very definitely homebuilt and body-wise,is really good(see pics),but I don't think he did his homework as far as hardware is concerned.The pickup poles don't line up with the strings,the frets from the 12th onward are seriously lethal,and have not been finished properly,and then the aforementioned bridge problem.It is active,with a very good 2-band EQ,and actually sounds,and to my eye,looks good.
Smaller saddles would definitely help I think,because while I want lower action,cutting bits out of it seems a bit drastic,but I realise I may have to.
The bass had a "Harper" logo on the headstock when I bought it,but,to add to the 'homebuilt 'thing was actually on upside down,so I sanded it off.Has anybody ever heard of this brand?I've tried Googling it but theres not a lot coming up.it was advertised as a "Simon Harper" bass,and there is some reference to someone of that name in New Zealand,who deals in importing cheap guitars from China,modding them and then selling them on,so I doubt if it's him.Thanx for all the input.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I would file a flat area onto the bottom of each saddle

[Beedster]

Surprisingly interesting thread! I'm no expert, but assuming the neck is pretty much straight, getting the action right by first adjusting the bridge saddle height and then tweaking the neck to ensure good quality notes through the entire range of the neck has always been the way I've done it, and I would require a lot of convincing that to do otherwise would be more effective. For one thing, given the way strings vibrate in relation to both the fret at which it's fretted and those which it needs to clear, and assuming lowish action, there is an optimum degree of neck relief for the combination of any neck and strings. Mess with this too much and you might have better action at some frets, but poorer tone (i.e., rattling or choking) at various others. Secondly, saddles respond immediately and predictably, necks don't; it can take several days for a neck to stabilise after adjustment, which means that all to often in using the neck to set action you're working against an unknown, that is, you don't know how much the neck is going to move after you adjust it. Related to this is the generally accepted idea that you can only make incremental changes to neck relief over time (e.g., half a turn per day), and not a large change in one go. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, should something go wrong with adjusting the bridge it's a relatively quick and cheap process to put right, something that is not true of broken or overtightened truss rods (a situation that is of course far more serious on a neck through instrument, and one of the reasons vintage Rics don't command the prices of vintage Fenders).

More than happy to be proved wrong on the above, but from experience and logic, bridges have easy to adjust saddles for a reason, the OP's bass simply appears to have the wrong bridge

[Beedster]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1262285' date='Jun 9 2011, 08:48 AM']I would file a flat area onto the bottom of each saddle[/quote]

That's probably the best bet

[squire5]

The bridge is most definitely the problem here.Nothing else.That and the general design of the bass.The bridge has no more adjustment for better action available,the neck is fine,but the action is quite high,tho' playable.I've looked on the 'Bay at different bridges,but none seem to have smaller saddles than what I've got now.So,routing out a piece for the bridge seems the only answer here.Filing flats onto the bottom of each saddle is also a possibility I suppose,as is groove filing,but as each saddle sits at an angle due to the adjustment screw,that angle would have to be exactly right,or the filed section would not sit flush with the baseplate.I'm taking the bass to a local luthier tomorrow,to see what he can come up with,but I think that routing is probably the way to go.I'll keep you guys posted,but please feel free to come up with more opinions and comments.Much appreciated.