Ken Smith and customer service ?

[lettsguitars]

utter rubbish. why would you use ups for such a small thing anyway? stick it in a jiffy and airmail it. a fiver would do that surely. i guess the guy makes enough money to not give a rats ass.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='kevin_lindsay' post='1264591' date='Jun 11 2011, 07:13 AM']I just remembered something about Ken Smith that I'd completely forgotten about.

Back in the 80's I saw the famous pic of Anthony Jackson in Bass Player sitting with his 6 string Smith bass. In my young mind I thought 'wow!' and decided I wanted a 6 stringer for myself. I couldn't afford the USA prices plus import tax and duty, so thought about getting z UK builder to make me one. This was before the Internet and easily available 6 string pickups and bridges. I got a local milling shop to make me z bridge to my own specs. I called Kent Armstrong about pickups and he told me that he actually made all of Ken's bass pickups but couldn't sell me a set as they were exclusively for Ken's business. Fair enough.

Ken said he could make me 6 string pickups but I'd have to supply something to create the mould shape. I was gonna use a wooden dolly for that but wondered if I could buy a set of pickups from ken directly. I called Ken Smith and told him about my conversation with Kent Armstrong, and to save me the hassle of making my own template, would it be possible to buy a set directly from himself? Unfortunately he said 'no' which I understood and fully appreciated.

Put phone down and think 'okay' time to do done shaping work myself. 15 mins later Kent Armstrong phones me to ask 'did you just phone Ken Smith?' - yup. Kent tells me Smith had phoned him screaming down thf phone that he was gonna sue Kent for breach of confidentiality about who made the pickups and called him 'a total ass' for even discussing things with me. Needless to say, Kent was not amused by Ken's attitude Nd went on to make mr a great set of pickups.

So, in my opinion also, Ken Smith will always remain a complete w***er.[/quote] nuff said. seems to me it aint about the basses anymore for ken smith. money and ego!

[risingson]

There seem to be quite a few bass luthiers out there that need a bit of a reality check. Is it too much for them to be humbled by all the interest in their instruments without being egomaniacs?

[mcnach]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1264539' date='Jun 11 2011, 01:36 AM']Yup. Dig up some of the old talkbass threads and you can see him screaming about how he has nothing to do with Ken Smith Design basses and is not responsible for them being crap even though his name is on them, he gets paid for that, and he sells them himself. He denied ever having anything to do with selling them and someone posted a bunch of old pages on his website talking about how cool they were and how to order them. They were inexpensive Chinese made basses and he marked them up way too high and then when they started falling apart he abandoned all the people who bought them. You really have to read the threads if you want the story direct.[/quote]


seems like a charming individual

he'd better make amazing basses, because when it comes to marketing and PR he doesn't seem so bright eh?

[BottomEndian]

This has gone in the Quotes thread for defamatory posterity.

[icastle]

I feel myself warming to him just a little bit...

[Machines]

I've just approved a validating account for Ken Smith, expect a response in the near future.

[paul h]

[quote name='Machines' post='1265402' date='Jun 11 2011, 09:31 PM']I've just approved a validating account for Ken Smith, expect a response in the near future.[/quote]

:buys extra popcorn and beer:

[Ken Smith]

Ok, I see that my presence was just announced. I am not here to crash your bashing party but rather to fix a few (many actually) errors, mis-truths and some what might call out right fictitious writings. There are 3 pages of 'mud' to sift thru here so I guess the best way is to go back to the beginning, quote the post and highlight the part of it I am responding to and correcting if necessary which is in most cases. You guys are quite the creative writers up here so I don't intend to have a typing duel, just set some facts straight.

Several years ago a person bought a Smith bass on Ebay (I think) and had it shipped straight to us for set-up and clean up. When we got the bass, it was a mess and needed somewhat of an actual restoration. We quoted about $800 at that time and I don't remember all that it needed but it needed a lot. After moans and cries from the buyer after he talked to the seller from Ebay we offered to do it for $600 and the two of them split the cost. About 6 months later from using a Monster Cable, he wore out the jack so we quoted the cost to ship a new one. He was upset that we wouldn't replace his worn Jack for free. Not to get into detail but Monster Cable (after replacing 100s or more Jacks) needs to let people know that they use a type 2 tip on their plugs which are slightly over-sized which do in time strip the inner spring of most Barrel type Jacks. They do offer a Type 1 and even told me to refer customers to them to have their cables modified if need be but that is NOT My job. It is Monster's job to make clear what jacks their cable works best with. The top mounted prong type jack is just fine because you can squeeze them together if the stretch out. You can't do that with an enclosed Barrel Jack. Sorry Monster, I have been fighting this problem for over 20 years. Being that this is a public Forum and not my Website, I feel safer in a legal way letting people know that this situation has existed for decades (at least 2).

That jack problem brought me on to Talkbass, a Thread which grew to over 225 replies in a week and over 8,000 views before I chimed in. Talk about a 'crap-storm'. Been there and done that and now it seems (10 years older now, me that is) that another camp fire lit the Forrest and no one knows how to put it out. Well, let's see what happens here. I will do my best as I said and I don't think it will be short. Hopefully it will be peaceful. I will not reply tp or quote new posts until I catch up to them in order. This is Saturday here at about 5pm and I came into the shop for just this reason because someone tried to join MY Forum to bring this to my attention which I noticed last night but needed to be in-office to take care of it. Please be patient as I may need a few breaks, dinner, bathroom, rest, etc before I get thru it all but, I intend to in a civil and professional manner.

[stingrayPete1977]

I think the postage costs are what we want to know about most?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='paul h' post='1265409' date='Jun 11 2011, 09:36 PM']:buys extra popcorn and beer:

[/quote]
Just took delivery of a 15'000 seat sofa from dfs, Take a seat!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1265464' date='Jun 11 2011, 10:24 PM']I think the postage costs are what we want to know about most? [/quote]
I wondered who'd be first to break cover. I had a fiver on Wayne at 4/1

Edited June 11, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='tournesol74' post='1261641' date='Jun 8 2011, 02:11 PM']Hi everyone,

I just have an experience with the Ken Smith customer service, I have one KS burner da5, and one pot in the electronic is broken. I ask for the customer service to pay for a new one, it seems to be 10$ but they ask me 100 $ for shipping !
I'm in France

I'm not sure it's really fair, I bought a lot of time some musical stuff in USA and never pay 100$ for a pot. For strings I pay 5$, so I don't think a pot weight more.

sorry for my english...[/quote]

Ok, this was the first from him here about a Pot. After a few emails with pictures I knew what he needed. He had bought a used bass over 10 years old (we stopped making the Burners in 1998 and from 1993 thru 2000 or so with the BSR 'B'(urner) we used the exact same circuit in all of our basses minus the Mid-board that was only on the 5-knob BMT units but this if 4 of the 5 knobs of the same circuit.

I will try and just put all of this information with this customer here and not quote him again and take up any more space than necessary. I will go into more detail as well with costs and expenses so everyone who has the patience can read and understand better what we have to do.

If someone walks in to buy something it is easy and we can do it as simple as fast food and he's off. If we have to ship it in-Country then we have to pack it, box it, invoice it, collect the money, ship it, pay UPS (or postal), record the payment in the accounting program (the accountant does the payment work and deposits) and make the deposit in the bank manually or in the system depending how we get paid. If this is international (including bordering Mexico and Canada, still a different country), we have more steps and some other information to fill out within the shipping documents that most never see when they receive the goods. Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, shipping out of USA has become more and more detailed than ever before.

For Foreign payments we prefer guaranteed funds like Bank wire, western union or Money Gram Wires or even US Postal money orders. Paypal costs us 4% and we have to wait a few days to get the payment and then we get only a net amount. Credit Cards also cost and as well with Paypal, is double time to record payments in our system. Also, we pay a higher rate and risk factor taking Cards over the phone and email rather than in person and the bank charges us for that. The solution is Wire type payment for Foreign orders.

It would cost me less to give a part away in labor than ship and collect for a small part and that is the truth. Still, we have to declare what is in the box.

In this case, we went on UPS and put in his address and the price with hidden charges came to about $100 so I quoted that. Also, a few months ago, when the UPS bill came in we were paying 11% fuel surcharge for every package overseas. Then, it was 13% last month and 2 weeks ago up to 15%. Wyen UPS send us the annual software it cannot be updated with Fuel Surcharges so they bill that weekly. When we look up the shipping amount, we have to add in that cost with insurance and whatever might apply. We also said that USPS/Postal will cost half or less but needed the full address to check. He had already flown off the handle by then. Last week I emailed him back and said the Postal charge is $30. I suggested that he buy some strings because the shipping will be the same. We have a $25. minimum purchase domestically and for this type of sale, we can hold that but would prefer $50 of goods for the extra trouble. This again is not a warranty or customer service issue other than 10-15 years ago, we shipped that bass to someone and now he bought t broken. Can you get this kind of service when your breaks wear out or your shoes? I return all emails the following business day. If I will be out, I let them know that when I return, I will get all of the info to him. Personally. For the last several years, all emails have been coming directly into my PC in a locked room. No one can read or reply to them but me. Before that, depending on when, someone else did the replies for sales and service and often without consulting me. There were problems and when I learned of them, I made it a policy that I review all information going out to make sure no one is improvising the answers. Now without a secretary or personal assistant, I do them all myself. There are only 6 people that work here now and I am one of them.

When a part other then the exact part is used for a circuit, bad things happen. I know because we have fixed many basses where the circuit didn't work because of it, was ruined and didn't work at all or, the wood was reamed out with a bigger hole that was costly to repair. The value of a Pot is only one factor, like the color of a Shoe! The shaft diameter, threading, center de-tent, taper and mounting to the board design is all inclusive or what makes any part important to be the original.

I know he was disappointed in getting a used broken bass but all we did was quote the costs to send him the part and something else like Strings to save money on combined shipping. usually we get thanked for helping people or for suggesting it. In thus case, he went on 3 Forums that I have seen so far and was crying Foul. maybe he should go back to who sold him the older, used bass be it a Smith Burner or USA handmade. My answers would have been the same regardless in this matter. In fact, I don't remember knowing it was a Burner at first, just the old 9v. maybe, communication was not crystal clear on the model of bass, just the part needed.

[MythSte]

regardless of that answer being satisfactory or otherwise - thanks for keeping your head, Ken.

[paul h]

I just ordered a small, non electrical part from the US. Postage cost me $4.50 and it arrived in a jiffy bag in about a week.

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1261761' date='Jun 8 2011, 03:24 PM']Ken is known for particularly bad customer service, as well as not really caring about the Burner basses. I think his justification was that they wern't his own instruments given their Japanese construction. I don't think he was ever particularly happy with the Burner basses or what became KSD basses.[/quote]

Ok, this need a bit of cleaning. When I designed the Burners in 1989, we were only making Neck thru basses and the owner for the factory, a friend of mine made the invitation. We supplied wood and later installed the circuits in-house. The Burners were in 4 models and the most expensive ones were still about half that of our USA handmade. They did quite well and we have no sorrow in that line in making them, selling them or discontinuing them when times changed about a decade later with bass products available. In total with the added BSR design the last two years, about 2,000 Burners were produced. We handled about 1,700 of them and another 300 were made and sold on a Royalty basis within Japan. Those we never touched and they had only the earlier Japan circuit.

The KSD's are a totally different product in the beginning with Brooklyn Gear (BG) wanting to market a Jazz bass from a good Korean factory but needed a personal design and designers name as well top market them. That's where I came in and helped them a bit along the way. When Fender tried to go after companies using there non-copyrighted Jazz body shape (their Head is protected but not the body) I was contacted by a NY Lawyer to pay a retainer for a class-action defense against Fender. Honestly, I like Fender and I have always been on friendly terms with them including some business with them at one point distribution some of our bass strings. If the body is theirs I said, 'fine, let them have it and pay what's owed'. 'Then use my BSR body pattern, it works just fine'. But sadly to their intent, Fender lost that battle. I would feel the same if my designs were used free of charge by everyone. Wouldn't you? So, they continued to make the KSD Jazz models. At that time however I gave Brooklyn all of the Burner patterns for 4, 5, and 6 string including the heads. The head was used first in the 6 with a jazz body but before BG could make anything new, the production was switched to China for a good reason. Korea could not compete with China and because f that, the quality was slipping as the factory lost brand customers one after another. D'Andrea was hired at about that time to distribute the KSD line for BG of which I heard only a few details about at first. Within a year or so BG threw in the Towel and offered the KSD line to them as an agreed switch between all parties, me (Ken Smith) included.

So, the Smith Burners from the 1990s and the KSD Burners had little to do with one another directly. The Burner used the BT body design from a sample we sent to Japan in early 1989. Connected, but with a decade in-between so not directly.

So, I DO care about any bass with my name on it or a product I collect Royalties. It's just that in many cases. regardless of how I care, it may not be MY product other than my design so I have to refer all requests to the company that runs that product and rents that product name.

As far as being happy with the Burners, I had a Job a few months ago here locally (yes, I still can play) and it was that show 'Fame'. My son Jon (a professional player) had borrowed my 5 string so I asked, 'what can I have that's available at home?' He said 'the Burner 4'. So, I gigged 5 nights with the Burner doing an R&B show and all was fine. I also had a doubling gig (BG and DB/Upright) the week before and used the same bass. So, I have used them as well, personally!

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='XB26354' post='1261869' date='Jun 8 2011, 04:18 PM']I used to have a BSR6 and asked for some Smith strings and polishing fluid. He replied a few days later with "We don't ship small orders internationally". I sold the bass not long after. I imagine Smith can't be bothered with their non-US customers as they do enough business inside the states. Guess which brand I will not be buying in the future?[/quote]

But didn't I refer you to Juststrings.com that DOES ship small orders? Not all manufactures ship consumers directly. We are a small company and doing business world wide is not as easy as someone asking us to do what they want when they want it. I can;t tell you how many times I have emails companies about their product and didn't even get a reply at all. At least I replied ASAP and told you who would be best to but that from. I am sorry if I couldn't be your personal supplier but I did my best to answer your request.

It is easy to jump on the bashing wagon and complain. The actual facts help shed light on posts like this.

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1262341' date='Jun 9 2011, 04:45 AM']Bojour mon ami , as a long time Smith lurker, and farily recent purchaser, I too have had a bad experience with Smith customer service. And don't think it's anything to do with the Burner series, it's pretty much across the board.

[b]I bought a beautiful used BSR5-GN ( the back of this bass is a work of art ) which came with the original hard case. Being a bit of a completeist I emailed Smith and asked if I could purchase the kit that comes with a new bass ( polish / allen keys / strap ) and he said he would sell me the strap ( $60 ) and polish ( $4) and throw in the allen keys free - HOWEVER there was a $300 ( yes THREE HUNDRED DOLLAR minimum order for overseas sales, and that doesn't include postage.[/b]

I didn't bother.

It is no surprise that a dwindling number of European dealers are willing to put up with this. US dealers seem to have him on a pedestal and he can do no wrong ( apart from Talkbass who I [i]THINK[/i] have banned him after a spat ). Again US owners are just SOOOO fawning it's almost sickening to read some of the message boards. Again I just don't bother now.

Contrast and compare with the service from other top US luthiers ( perhaps Jimmy Copollo aside - I think he and Ken went to the same customer service school, although to be fair Jimmy is more just forgetful and disorganised than nasty as Ken can appear at times, and Jimmy has recently employed someone to deal with customers and let him build the basses ). It doesn't put Smith in a good light, and the basses are expensive, and popular with a lot of pro players in Europe. Surely this is a market he can't ignore or afford to disenfranchise.

Like you I am very disapointed in Smith's attitude. If I didn't truly love this bass I would be moving it on as a token protest.
Good luck with the part,
Stewart[/quote]

Ok, that price for the Strap must have included the set of Dunlop Straploks because that is not the price for just the Strap which is published. We ship worldwide all the time and I don't know about a $300. minimum unless its a Dealer order of something. I would love to see ALL of the emails we exchanged. Maybe I had you mixed with some other business. I can't recall. This $300 minimum just doesn't seem true to me.

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1262563' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:38 AM']If I thought it would make a blind bit of difference I would.

I'm afraid the impression I always get from dealing with Smith is that everyone else is out of step but them.

S[/quote]


Everyone else? We have shipped over 6,000 Hand made basses from our shop and about 1,700 Burners we completed here. Add 30 years of selling Strings and 2 years of selling Polish and if were to be correct, this company of mine would be long gone. Most customers are busy playing their Bass and prefer to play than chat I guess.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1265467' date='Jun 11 2011, 10:28 PM']I wondered who'd be first to break cover. I had a fiver on Wayne at 4/1 [/quote]


Sorry mate I was at the cinema watching Senna, what a film, go watch it if you can.

Either way I haven't seen anything that explains how a small electrical part costs $100 to ship.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Ken Smith' post='1265512' date='Jun 11 2011, 11:14 PM']Ok, that price for the Strap must have included the set of Dunlop Straploks because that is not the price for just the Strap which is published. We ship worldwide all the time and I don't know about a $300. minimum unless its a Dealer order of something. I would love to see ALL of the emails we exchanged. Maybe I had you mixed with some other business. I can't recall. This $300 minimum just doesn't seem true to me.[/quote]

That's the post I was most interested in as a minimum spend of that much sounds crazy but if it's a mistake that explains it.

[TomKent]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1265517' date='Jun 11 2011, 11:20 PM']Either way I haven't seen anything that explains how a small electrical part costs $100 to ship.[/quote]

This.

I shipped my amp to Russia for less than that.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1265517' date='Jun 11 2011, 11:20 PM']Sorry mate I was at the cinema watching Senna, what a film, go watch it if you can.

Either way I haven't seen anything that explains how a small electrical part costs $100 to ship.[/quote]
Admin costs and 911 Wayne

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1265524' date='Jun 11 2011, 11:26 PM']Admin costs and 911 Wayne [/quote]


A 11/9.

[TomKent]

In addition to my previous post - I bought a replacement switch for one of my DigiTech pedals, $20 (whole unit and some extra bits just incase) and their postage (which was stupidly fast) was about £5 ($8 something).

And it was delivered by UPS.

So.. how come they get it cheaper?