Ken Smith and customer service ?

[thepurpleblob]

I used to manage a car audio retailer that had a big repair shop (and so dealt with spare parts day in day out). We eventually had to stop selling them directly to the public completely because it was bad for business. We'd get into this sort of thing all the time. Sure, we can order that 10 pence screw, but Alpine/Pioneer/Kenwood/Whoever have minimum order rates plus I'm going to charge you an engineer's time for identifying the right part number phoning in the order (it was back in the dark ages) and sending it off to you. You should see their faces when 10 pence turns to 30-odd quid.

Problem was that all these costs were built in if we were doing the repair ourselves but there was no way to charge a (to the punters) "sensible" price to someone off the street.

So rather than being called "w*nkers", we stopped doing it altogether. Companies that speciailise in selling small low cost spare parts are geared up to do that in quantity. Presumably by having very low paid people to do the donkey work.

My point - my experience of working for myself is that the public don't understand overheads!

[xgsjx]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1265716' date='Jun 12 2011, 06:43 AM']Well I've seen nothing in his attitude that would change my mind about buying anything from him, I have found him both rude and arrogant.

I wouldn't buy anything from Dingwall due to taste but from Sheldon's posts, if I did like his basses I'm sure it'd be a pleasure doing business with him.[/quote]
That's the problem with forums, emails, texts & so on. You can easily misinterpret what someone is saying.
My mrs misreads texts from friends & thinks they're being off when it was just that persons sense of humour.
She's actually fallen out with her best friend via text a few times & I've made her use the phone to make up, as written word doesn't carry the tone of the word.
I'm not saying you're wrong Wayne, as I might be misinterpreting what's said, but from what Ken has said so far, I'd consider one of his basses if I had the money (though I prefer the shape of Ritter basses ).

[JimBobTTD]

I think Ken Smith has come off as a decent chap who may be a little hot-headed at times but cares enough about his instruments to come on here and try to set matters straight. Not a w***er at all; or no more than the rest of us. Ken - if you are ever in my neck of the woods, you are welcome to stop by for a cup of tea.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1265646' date='Jun 12 2011, 01:11 AM']That's nothing. Give it time, you'll be spending 6 or 7 hours a day here like the rest of us. [/quote]

Has anyone explained what TIM meens to Ken yet? Bumperoo......

[Kiwi]

At least people can understand why I've said nothing on this thread to date. Ken I really wish you'd get off the internet and phone people instead. I think you come across well on the factory vid but your email comms come across as defensive and arrogant. Its up to you how to deal with that but I'd suggest a little empathy would go a long way. Respect comes from backing your customers, not your product.

BTW, I don't regret selling all three of my Smith basses, my modded spectors are way better and taught me I don't need loads of lams for a fantastic sounding bass.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1265067' date='Jun 11 2011, 04:16 PM'] This has gone in the Quotes thread for defamatory posterity.[/quote]
I totally understand why Skank's post had to go. Still...

It'll live on in my memory.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1265716' date='Jun 12 2011, 06:43 AM']Well I've seen nothing in his attitude that would change my mind about buying anything from him, I have found him both rude and arrogant.

I wouldn't buy anything from Dingwall due to taste but from Sheldon's posts, if I did like his basses I'm sure it'd be a pleasure doing business with him.[/quote]

Plus one. Crazy thread. Although I'm starting to like Dingwall designs

Great to see Ken actually involved but to be fair, it still hasnt defused the situation!

You know what, don't mess about talking about 'getting paid' for 4 hours, even if it was a joke. I'm no expert but you should just defuse the whole thing and save your potential customer base...and send the chap with the pot a pot for FREE! Then it looks great, and costs you naff all basically.

You have to take a hit in business to keep customers...they might come back for more basses!

Take a look at Genz Benz and their service. Exceptionally good!

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1265816' date='Jun 12 2011, 10:36 AM']I think you come across well on the factory vid but your email comms come across as defensive and arrogant. Its up to you how to deal with that but I'd suggest a little empathy would go a long way. Respect comes from backing your customers, not your product.[/quote]

This

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1265861' date='Jun 12 2011, 11:27 AM']Great to see Ken actually involved but to be fair, it still hasnt defused the situation!

You know what, don't mess about talking about 'getting paid' for 4 hours, even if it was a joke. I'm no expert but you should just defuse the whole thing and save your potential customer base...and send the chap with the pot a pot for FREE! Then it looks great, and costs you naff all basically.

You have to take a hit in business to keep customers...they might come back for more basses!

Take a look at Genz Benz and their service. Exceptionally good![/quote]


And this.

[Ross]

I always return to business' that go the extra mile.
Like stringbusters, a string broke after less than a day, no quibble, didn't expect the string back as proof, just sent another next day in the post.
Absolutely outstanding service, which is why i will use them again.

I highly doubt I'd use a ken smith product after seeing some of the dreadful responses and customer service displayed in this thread.

[Rich]

[quote name='Ken Smith' post='1265704' date='Jun 12 2011, 03:35 AM']But then again, your guys are English and drive on the Wrong side of the road, right?.. lol[/quote]
Not at all. You guys drive on the right... we drive on the [i]correct[/i]

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Ross' post='1265960' date='Jun 12 2011, 12:31 PM']I always return to business' that go the extra mile.
Like stringbusters, a string broke after less than a day, no quibble, didn't expect the string back as proof, just sent another next day in the post.
Absolutely outstanding service, which is why i will use them again.[/quote]

+1
Whatever the rights and wrongs, that pot and UPS cost has snowballed into a right old saga where no-one seems to come off particularly well. How much cheaper it would have been in the long run if the pot had been send out gratis? The OP would be proclaiming love for KS all over the internet, and KS wouldn't have wasted hours of his valuable time explaining his side of the story to a largely indifferent audience.

Sure, by just sending the pot, KS would have lost a bit of money in the short term, but would have gained a whole lot of saved time and goodwill in the long term. That's another way of looking at 'overheads' within a business - the stuff you do to go that extra mile for the customer; of course it costs money but it's probably a better investment than all the time spent trying (and probably failing) to placate an upset customer.

This sort of thread is similar to using the legal process to settle disputes. As soon as the matter ends up in court, both parties have basically lost - in terms of time, cost, reputation etc etc - regardless of the eventual outcome.

Hence the old adage: the customer is always right - even when they're wrong.

[Rich]

You know what I'd do? Stick the pot in a jiffy bag as has been suggested, and send it off FOC using the USPS $2.50 service that someone found.
If it arrives in one piece, all is well and goodwill is restored. Good PR, minimal outlay.
If it arrives busted up in transit, then it's reasonable to say "well I tried, but I did warn you it might happen"... but at least the attempt was made. Goodwill is restored, as the right thing is seen to have been attempted. More good PR, minimal outlay.
That's what [i]I'd[/i] do. But then I'm a skint signalling designer from Bristol, not an NYC luthier.

[RhysP]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1265986' date='Jun 12 2011, 12:48 PM']How much cheaper it would have been in the long run if the pot had been send out gratis?[/quote]
But where then, as a businessman, do you draw the line?

The OP gets his free pot, goes on all the bass forums & tells everyone he got it free & what a great guy Ken Smith is.
This puts Ken in the position of having set a precedent of sending stuff out for free. The next person he charges for a replacement part then goes on all the forums & starts bitching about it not being fair because other people got their stuff free.

You can't win in this situation.

Let's remember that we're talking about an old secondhand bass the OP has here.

All my basses are secondhand & made by small high end companies. I've sent emails to them about various things in the past, including buying merchandise. I've got replies to some, others have had none. I'm not about to go stamping my feet & saying what a bunch of bastards **** are for not treating me as a valued customer even though they've never actually seen a penny of my money.

We're talking about small businesses here, not some multinational company who can afford to have a dedicated team of customer service advisers dealing with queries & complaints 24/7.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1266177' date='Jun 12 2011, 03:26 PM']But where then, as a businessman, do you draw the line?

The OP gets his free pot, goes on all the bass forums & tells everyone he got it free & what a great guy Ken Smith is.
This puts Ken in the position of having set a precedent of sending stuff out for free. The next person he charges for a replacement part then goes on all the forums & starts bitching about it not being fair because other people got their stuff free.

You can't win in this situation.

Let's remember that we're talking about an old secondhand bass the OP has here.

All my basses are secondhand & made by small high end companies. I've sent emails to them about various things in the past, including buying merchandise. I've got replies to some, others have had none. I'm not about to go stamping my feet & saying what a bunch of bastards **** are for not treating me as a valued customer even though they've never actually seen a penny of my money.

We're talking about small businesses here, not some multinational company who can afford to have a dedicated team of customer service advisers dealing with queries & complaints 24/7.[/quote]


TBH though it's not just this instance.

The one that sticks out for me is the one where he sent the wrong strings then called the customer an idiot for ordering the 'wrong' strings.


This is from the KS FB page.

"Unfortunally i have to agree with you on the customer service, and i do own one."


You can't excuse bad customer service just because it's a small company.

[stingrayPete1977]

Its funny how some people say they would only deal with small company to get the best service yet others say hey its only a small company they havent got teams of people to deal with all this stuff. This is where a good trustworthy right hand man is essential in business, someone who would know exactly what part to send for the right pre amp in this case and get it posted in a suitable fashion leaving the skillful bass building work to be done without dealing with shiz like this all day which if you were trying to get basses built I can see would frustrate anyone in fairness. The fact Ken says he has now locked the computer away from everyone else suggests no such person exists at the moment?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1266177' date='Jun 12 2011, 03:26 PM']But where then, as a businessman, do you draw the line?[/quote]

Fair point, but . . . . .

[quote name='RhysP' post='1266177' date='Jun 12 2011, 03:26 PM']Let's remember that we're talking about an old secondhand bass the OP has here.[/quote]

. . . so how many times is such a situation likely to raise its ugly head, especially for a boutique bass company?

I don't know how to value adverse publicity but I'd hazard a guess that this thread has been quite expensive compared with the costs of shipping a few tens of pots through the post.

As I said, such a cost could be regarded as an overhead, depending on your business principles, and might be fully covered by an extra $10 on the list price of a new bass, which I doubt would affect many sales.

Or, cut such costs to the bone and charge customers for every spare screw and postage stamp and maybe even stop talking to them on the phone unless they call a premium-rate line - time is money after all.

Now, what sort of company would you prefer to deal with?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1266192' date='Jun 12 2011, 03:36 PM']You can't excuse bad customer service just because it's a small company.[/quote]

Indeed, quite the reverse in fact. A large company could conceivably get its customer-service wrong through poor organisation, various departments passing the buck, employees basically not caring enough about the customer, etc etc.

But when it's a small company and it's the owner that deals with such issues . . . . .

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1264848' date='Jun 11 2011, 12:48 PM']You know that line could be used to describe Rickenbacker too.[/quote]

I don't know about that, I've always thought Rickenbackers were crap and Ken Smith instruments were excellent. I am now GAS'ing for a Smith bass, shame they're so hard to find on these shores!

[Doddy]

Just going away from the subject slightly.....

Ken... are your old Music Minus One books still available?

[Machines]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1266266' date='Jun 12 2011, 04:25 PM']I don't know about that, I've always thought Rickenbackers were crap and Ken Smith instruments were excellent. I am now GAS'ing for a Smith bass, shame they're so hard to find on these shores![/quote]
[url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/SMITH_bass_guitars.html"]http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_sp...ss_guitars.html[/url]

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1266177' date='Jun 12 2011, 10:26 AM']But where then, as a businessman, do you draw the line?

The OP gets his free pot, goes on all the bass forums & tells everyone he got it free & what a great guy Ken Smith is.
This puts Ken in the position of having set a precedent of sending stuff out for free. The next person he charges for a replacement part then goes on all the forums & starts bitching about it not being fair because other people got their stuff free.

[b]You can't win in this situation.[/b]

Let's remember that we're talking about an old secondhand bass the OP has here.

All my basses are secondhand & made by small high end companies. I've sent emails to them about various things in the past, including buying merchandise. I've got replies to some, others have had none. I'm not about to go stamping my feet & saying what a bunch of bastards **** are for not treating me as a valued customer even though they've never actually seen a penny of my money.

We're talking about small businesses here, not some multinational company who can afford to have a dedicated team of customer service advisers dealing with queries & complaints 24/7.[/quote]

This is so true and thanks for posting. It's a no-win situation in the long run. Sometimes people call for replacements of parts of strings and the brand that broke isn't even ours. The assumed we wouldn't check and just ship stuff for free because they asked. You guys watch the news, right? A million Cars or Shoes made and sold and to happy customers. NOTHING in the News about it UNTIL, something breaks. Then, all hell breaks loose and the company isn't good anymore. Have you heard much good news at all on TV or in the Papers or only the Bad stuff that happens?

Most people who post on line do not use their real name so no one knows who they are, where they are, what they do, how old they are [b]or[/b] if the information the put in their profile is even true. Then, they come out and point the finger at someone or some company that has a real name and address. Not easy to defend is it?

I will not address ever gripe here whether true, false or exaggerated. Maybe if I was some anonymous guy I would be at equal odds with the anonymous complainer. My Forum requires only real full names and for a good reason. So we all know where people are coming from and who they really are. If I find out I have a wrong or fictitious name for a person, I get it fixed or deleter the member for posing. In truth and business there must be trust. How can you trust everything you hear is it comes from behind an invisible wall, no face, no name, no ID, no proven reputation and maybe, he's still in 4th grade even. Who knows. Many years ago I received a package in the Mail from, someone saying 'these strings are defective. Please send another set'. They were NOT Smith strings. They were actually Piccato, some English brand which I was familiar with. they were old and used, not broken. So, I looked up the phone number for that name and address in Oregon, USA. Some kid answers the phone and I ask about the other brand strings he sent and that they are not Smith strings. He said 'I know, my mommy helped me write the letter". I had two such attempts around the same period and the other was also an English string (I am not making this up). Same kind of results. Just looking for a freebie.

When you have a business and a product you can easily become a target for people wanting to get something a little extra. Many of the people that say they will never buy our bass according to their own profile do not have instruments in that price range anyway. Maybe they might some day and maybe they just wanna join a Gang and sound tough or smart. I don't give it all that much attention. Just anonymous posters making anonymous comments. It is easy to accuse someone of saying or doing something 5, 10 or 20 years ago or even yesterday and some people will believe it because you cant defend hearsay. On the other hand, you can't prove it either. I might as well spend all day arguing with my wife. Right or wrong, I can never win, not in the long run. She's always right, even when she's wrong. I am so glad she doesn't play the bass.. oooooooooooooo

Ok, I have to get in gear here because I have a rehearsal and need to do a few things before. Then pick which Double Bass I am going to bring to this Orchestra rehearsal, pack my car and go make a few dollars. Unlike most all other people in this product business, I made my living for 20 years in NYC 'playing' the bass. On all my tax returns for that period it said under occupation "Musician". So, you guys are dealing with a bass player with 20 years experience in the streets of New York. I don't give in to pressure all that easily. I lived pressure! Then again, what's fair is fair and all of you should understand that and respect that. There are also professional bass players out there making their living playing bass that studied bass with me as private students so I am not just a guy who sells parts for broken basses. I know how they are played and how they get broken. The Smith bass did not fall from the sky. It was a well thought out professional product and to this day, they are still way under prices from what I have seen out there with other basses and prices I just can't believe.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Ken Smith

[Ken Smith]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1266271' date='Jun 12 2011, 11:32 AM']Just going away from the subject slightly.....

Ken... are your old Music Minus One books still available?[/quote]

Yes, as far as I know. Try Googling them. I got a Royalty check not long ago for the 4th quarter 2010 for both bass and drum records I titled. The ones I played on as a sideman are not all still out there from what I have found, maybe some of them. Mine were reissued in CD form in the mid 1990's but they cut a few tunes from each double album to fit the CD space.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Ross' post='1265960' date='Jun 12 2011, 12:31 PM']I highly doubt I'd use a ken smith product after seeing some of the dreadful responses and customer service displayed in this thread.[/quote]
Fair point. So I counted up the number of posters here who actually had first-hand problems.

* Four were about shipping cost or int'l shipping
* One about 'overall attitude'
* A third party reported a falling out over a commercial disclosure, prompted by the poster's call to Ken.
* One about a row over string gauges as delivered

So half were about shipping costs and we've agreed that UPS is expensive and Ken probably needs to highlight the USPS option. The 'attitude' thing is a bit non-specific and therefore difficult to address. The 'commercial disclosure' poster seemed not to have had any first-hand problems with Ken.

What we're left with VGS's incorrect string-gauge barney. And once the dust settled, Ken sent another set of strings. Not ideal, tbh, but not life-threatening either.

We've all got examples of [i]really[/i] sh*tty customer service, ranging from one-man-bands to internet retailers to public utilities. Looking at the issues above, they seem pretty normal for a typical small business . So, while acerbic ol' Ken might not be my first choice for a snuggly evening in front of the telly, neither would he seem to be the spawn of Satan.

Unless he's a secret kitten-drowner, of course.

Edited June 12, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Harry]

i have never had a problem with ken, he has always taken the time to e-mail me back with all my questions about Smith basses when i was looking for them, also about the ones i have bought and also when i was looking i kept mailing him about what the differences were between models, woods, etc before i bought one and he always gave me a very detailed and comprehensive answer and advice etc about that particuler bass or model..( All pre owned so he wasn't making any money out of the basses but still took the time to answer) When i was looking to possibly buy new the shipping cost i was quoted was fair, never had a problem with direct contact and replies... Thanks

[dave_bass5]

There seem to be quite a few Witch hunt type threads on her recently. It seems some people love to join in and put the boot in without ever having all the facts or hearing both sides. These people make their own mind up very early on in the thread and you wont change their minds.


After reading Ken's replies i must admit i was a bit surprised at how clam and down to earth they are. Not the picture i had in my head based on the posts up until Ken started posting.

I think Ken has been pretty calm about all this, no ranting or raving like i had expected.

Just saying.

Edited June 12, 2011 by dave_bass5