My own music lesson, a hard one too.

[xilddx]

I know this is in BASS discussion, but this will hopefully relate to any instrument.

I got this guitar gig , a biggish festival, with an old friend who is a well employed world class sitarist, gig's at the end of the month. She's the most amazing musician I've known, she plays with true passion and can communicate it too, along with being hugely accomplished and with notable Indian classical music heritage. I have to play raag based music with a western twist in time signatures such as 13/4 split into 6 3 2 2, stuff like that, playing quite challenging and fast sitar melodies with strange non-western phrasing, and playing chords generated from open tunings. I have to sing in another language on one number too. It's sitar, guitar and claypot, the three of us singing at some points. nowhere to hide I've been playing for over 30 years and I'm a reasonable guitarist with a decent ear and I know I can handle this (with a lot of shedding over the next few weeks) but it has really got me thinking.

I've not had a challenge like this in a very long time. Most of the basslines I have to play are quite simple really, I can put a fair bit of passion into them playing live and really concentrate on the sound of the whole band. I love composing basslines, and I love performing live and slinging my bass about and having a good old dance. That's why I think I graduated from guitar to bass, I love how massive it is, and how (if you pay attention to your imagination) you can do so much with so little, and put so much energy into it.

This guitar gig has so far given me so much self-doubt as to my musicality. It disturbs me because I feel like a musical child. So unsophisticated and lazy. I had my first rehearsal with the percussionist and sitar last night, and my god, I had to use every ounce of my physical and mental ability. She said it went ok, but I didn't. I've been listening to the music a LOT over the last few weeks, so it's all in my mind in a slightly abstract fashion, but I could sing you the melodies and I have a good impression of the structures. but only spent a couple of hours learning some chords and tricky lead lines, because she said it would be different from the recordings. I have realised how little I can remember, although some of it is coming back now, how my chord and single note playing ability is restricting my musical expression, and how easily intimidated I am when faced with a real challenge. I think I've become lazy and that I believe THINKING about music is a substitute for hard practice. It isn't.

The thing is, my limited physical ability means I can't play with any passion, I feel wooden. My memory means I am concentrating so hard on stuff that isn't musical like the arrangement. My lack of experience with the weird timings men I am even more wooden while concentrating on where the ONE is.

The lesson for me is confusing. I think if I work hard I may be able to play the gig with some fire in my belly, intuitively instead of some pathetic plastic nonsense. But the biggest lesson is that I know, if not for my laziness, I could be a really good musician. This troubles me. What do I really want out of music? I want to be proud of what I do, I'd like to be taken seriously, I want to entertain on stage and record something other people like, even inspire some people, have people like what I do. But it's all vanity, narcissism, selfishness. Even me posting this reflects this bullshit. It's easy, lazy, and pathetic. I'm cheating myself and my bandmates, it's not real, I'm not really feeling it. But I have always been like this, vain and lazy, and pretty hard on myself at the same time

The hardest thing is to feel community with your fellow musicians and the people in the audience, enough that it creates real sparks, a true emotional and spiritual experience, while satisfying all technical expectations. It not all in your sphere of control, but the lesson is to do all you can to make that happen.

Here endeth the dump. Hope it makes some sort of sense

Edited June 9, 2011 by silddx

[Bloodaxe]

It does us good to get kicked out of our comfort zone every once in a while. though it won't feel it at the time

With the relatively short time available to you (& allowing for Real Life stuff), it might be wise to take a raincheck on the 'fire & passion' side of it at the moment. Tough, I know - maybe even impossible, but I find that stuff comes only when you have the utmost familiarity with the material & can consequently start to stretch out & make it truly yours.

I also believe that you [b]cannot[/b] make the magic happen. It won't be forced or cajoled into existence. The occurrence of 2+2=5 is a very rare thing indeed, & very fragile too. When it happens it's fan-bloody-tastic. But it'll happen on its terms, not yours.

As to the bigger picture re: where you want to go etc., only you can really answer that, and half past two in the morning is a crap time for navel-gazing, trust me. Yes, there's a degree of vanity/narcissism/shallowness/selfishness to what we do, but so what? I'm happy if any of the following criteria are met:

The dance floor is rammed.
I get paid,
Other players I respect are [i]genuinely[/i] appreciative,
I have a 'good' tone, that I can hear,
The promoter/landlord wants the band back,
I get paid,
If it's a sub gig, no-one outside the band realises it's the first time I've got up with them (usually with no rehearsal).
Word gets around the I'm usually up for a sub on very short notice, & the 'phone rings a bit more often.

Of course, if [b]all[/b] of those criteria occur at one gig, for a couple of days I'll sport a grin so wide that cheshire cats will run a mile

Shallow? Vain?

Moi?

Actually I do this stuff primarily because I love it & can't imagine [i]not[/i] doing it. External praise & reward are great, but they're really the icing not the cake.

Being a 'musical child' as you put it is surely the ideal state? We know a bit, but equally we know we're actually at Level 1. The trick is to realise that there aren't any levels beyond 1.
Besides, if you know it all, whatcher gonna do about it? When you know everything, there's nothing left to know, so what's the point? Might as well take up knitting instead!

See what you've done Nige? You've got me spouting cod Zen wibble at stupid o'clock & I ain't even drunk or stoned

Off to the Woodshed with ye! It'll be fine.

Pete.

[Bilbo]

Welcome to my world.

The journey I have been on is, in some ways, similar. I want to be the best musician I can. A long time ago, I bought into the 'you can learn something from every gig' ethhos and took all the work that came my way. I earned some money. Great. I have spent all of my working life (as a musician) playing music in situations that are less than ideal but, in many ways, that goes with the territory. But there came a point, about 2 years ago, when I realised that some of the work I was taking was doing me harm; I was emotionally undermined by the poor standard and was projecting the bands failings onto myself. I realised that, in order to do what you do as well as you wish to, it can be counter productive to do other things that subvert your momentum. I know lots of drummers who play jazz and rock and they always say that too much rock makes it necessary for them to woodshed before a jazz gig in order to regain the flexibility they require in their wrists. I think bass players can be the same. If you want to function at the highest level you possibly can, you need to spend a lot of time there and too many 'Mustang Sally' gigs will subvert your technique and, more important, your mental disciplines.

For me, as an improvising musician, you need to be mentally sharp and too many 'lazy' gigs which are well within your comfort zone (which, for me, means most function type gigs) push you into a space where your skills are blunted. Spending gigs metaphorically staring out of the window or just people watching is an easy way to make money but, when you want to excel, its not necessarily good for your mental discipline. It applies at all levels: Branford Marsalis and Kenny Kirkland said the same when they did the Sting gig. After a few months on the road with Sting, they really had to 'shed to get their jazz chops back. Not their physical skills but their mental/physical coordination. It sounds to me like your raga gig is demanding a mental investment that you are not used to delivering. I say stick with it and make it happen. Your bandleader has invested in you; trust and respect her vision and watch something special grow.

Or go back to 'Good Times'. 'Ain't Nobody' and 'Son Of A Preacher Man'.

[icastle]

[quote name='silddx' post='1262211' date='Jun 9 2011, 02:19 AM']But I have always been like this, vain and lazy, [b]and pretty hard on myself at the same time [/b][/quote]

That's the bit that jumps out.

This was never going to be an easy gig, you knew that.

Stop writing essays and go learn those tunes you daft sod.

[chaypup]

[quote name='silddx' post='1262211' date='Jun 9 2011, 02:19 AM'][b]That's why I think I graduated from guitar to bass,[/b] I love how massive it is, and how (if you pay attention to your imagination) you can do so much with so little, and put so much energy into it.[/quote]


Well said!

[daflewis]

You're going to feel so great after you've done this! - and whatever else you feel you are, brave is perhaps something you've missed out.
Sure you're scared, but you're doing it anyway and that's the real point. this is going to be worth years of bedroom noodling and sounds like it's already inspired you hugely.

I had a similar experience a few years ago - I was asked to do an emergency dep on Phantom of the Opera at less than a day's notice and i spent the 12hours or so wondering why the hell i had said yes.... but man, what a rush! and looking back it's something I feel really proud of and am so glad i did.

Edited June 9, 2011 by daflewis

[risingson]

You've built up a complexity and taken a knock to your self-esteem because you can't get your head around a type of music that you need to live and breathe. Why? We (mostly) grow up with western music in our ears to the point where we're bogged down in it. I certainly wouldn't know where to start if I was suddenly moved over to Indonesia and was made to play Gamelan all of a sudden, but that's not exactly surprising, is it? I've not grown up about it and it isn't what I've learned and it isn't what I know.

If you think about why most people pick up an instrument in the first place, it's probably because they have a love for music. Your talk of 'vanity, narcissism and selfishness' may exist for you, I don't know, but if it does then that will be a recent development of you becoming a competent musician and realising your strengths when you play live and the reaction you get from the crowds... it has a tendency to elevate you above modesty on some level. You clearly just need to remind yourself why you ended up playing music in the first place and persevere with it. The only reason you have a defeatist attitude about what you're doing at the moment is probably because you can't handle something so totally unfamiliar, but just remember the kick you got out of learning your first bass line or guitar part successfully as a fledgling musician and be humbled by the fact you get a chance to play some incredible music that not many western musicians get a chance to play.

[originalfunkbrother]

Its because of stories like these that I love Basschat! Real insight into real people.

[ficelles]

If you over-analyze what you're doing the gig will be about as much fun as a root canal. Stop worrying about how good you are or aren't going to be - just enjoy the new experience and that will come out in your performance. I wish I was doing this gig, sounds great!

ficelles

Edited June 9, 2011 by ficelles

[chris_b]

You want to be Indian playing Raga on a guitar. She wants a Brit playing guitar on her Raga music, so you're already half way there.

You have an inertia which is understandable, just keep pushing yourself and talk to her about her thoughts about the sound and playing of this band and the momentum will come.

My granny said cod liver oil was good for the brain!

Edited June 9, 2011 by chris_b

[Earbrass]

You've had just [b]one[/b] rehearsal for music that's well outside your comfort zone, in a genre you're not used to and on an instrument that's not your usual gig, and you're worried that you can't play the material fluently???

You need a bit less

[attachment=82205:doomed.jpg]

and a bit more

[attachment=82204:index.jpg]

[xilddx]

Thanks for the insightful and encouraging posts friends

I have been working on the material today and had a chat with her about some of it. Notably that I did not want to be playing folk style guitar on the arrangement of Scarborough Fair if Martin Carthy is playing guitar at the same time, way too much potential for appalling note clashes as I can't play exactly what he's playing. I suggested I do keyboard-like guitar sound washes with the volume pedal and she liked the idea so that's sorted. I can now pretty much play all the chords and sitar lines on the rest of the material, just need to firm up the arrangements and tighten it all up, which is where the main work will be. The cut and paste music creation methods of today can throw up a lot of strange arrangement problems that can be difficult to remember as they aren't natural, and I'm more of a feel/repetition learner, not a counter, I can't stand having to count while I'm playing.

Feeling a bit better about it now Although the philosophical lessons and questions remain, what do I really want from playing music and how do I best achieve them when I do find out? This episode has really thrown up a lot of self analysis.

Thanks again!

[51m0n]

I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks.

He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff.

It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard.

He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet.

Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine.

Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.

[RhysP]

Have you tried playing the guitar stuff with your gloves off?

You're playing on the same stage as Carthy? Wow. I wouldn't even hold a guitar in the same building as him, I'd be far too intimidated.

[ZMech]

Sounds like you've had a productive day! glad to hear the confidence is back.

A small bit of advice. I've found when approaching any daunting task is first to sit down and cut it down into small sections, which normally brings on the realisation that each one individually isn't so bad. My last application of this was writing my 40pg lab report, when I made myself write the contents page so it was down to 8 different 5pg sections and it suddenly looked much more doable. Same goes with music practise i think, seperating out your concentration to rhythm, notes, and technique individually can make you much more productive, provided you remember to bring it all back together at the end.

not sure i'll be venturing into 13/4 anytime soon, i find 5/4 bad enough! best of luck.

Edited June 9, 2011 by ZMech

[BottomE]

Hmm - imagine my dissapointment when i saw this thread was not about a new teaching technique...

[attachment=82230:hardonbasschat.jpg]

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1263089' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:07 PM']I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks.

He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff.

It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard.

He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet.

Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine.

Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.[/quote]
Bloody hell Si, can I use that on my CV?

You are too kind mate

[xilddx]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1263115' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:24 PM']Have you tried playing the guitar stuff with your gloves off?

You're playing on the same stage as Carthy? Wow. I wouldn't even hold a guitar in the same building as him, I'd be far too intimidated.[/quote]
They are off, but I feel like they're on!

Carthy has the most beautiful tone. I think he still uses his Martin that's over 40 years old with very heavy strings. Wonderful musician.

[xilddx]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1263137' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:38 PM']Sounds like you've had a productive day! glad to hear the confidence is back.

A small bit of advice. I've found when approaching any daunting task is first to sit down and cut it down into small sections, which normally brings on the realisation that each one individually isn't so bad. My last application of this was writing my 40pg lab report, when I made myself write the contents page so it was down to 8 different 5pg sections and it suddenly looked much more doable. Same goes with music practise i think, seperating out your concentration to rhythm, notes, and technique individually can make you much more productive, provided you remember to bring it all back together at the end.

not sure i'll be venturing into 13/4 anytime soon, i find 5/4 bad enough! best of luck.[/quote]
I sort of approach things in this way too. I lived with the music recordings for a few of weeks before even picking up the guitar. That way the tonality gets in my head. Then I learned a few tricky bits before the first rehearsal, I should have done more but it was not clear how much the arrangements would change. Yesterday I developed the chord voicings, weird because the guitarist who did the original recordings plays in a strange open tuning I've not come across before, it has an F sharp in it. I have most of the chords sorted now, but they are tricky because certain tones need to be present and the voicings are difficult in Drop D. I'll have to put the hours in to get them under my fingers. Also, we'll be improvising some of it live so there's added pressure to be completely comfortable with all aspects of the music.

Anyway, off to rehearsal 2 in Southampton in a couple of hours. I'll record it this time!

[RhysP]

[quote name='silddx' post='1263804' date='Jun 10 2011, 12:13 PM']They are off, but I feel like they're on!

Carthy has the most beautiful tone. I think he still uses his Martin that's over 40 years old with very heavy strings. Wonderful musician.[/quote]
He uses his Martin signature model mostly nowadays - he had the original refurbished by Martin & doesn't take it out very often anymore apparently.

I had my Fylde set up in Carthy tuning for a while - CGCDGA. The strings were massively heavy, something like a 17 or 19 top string & a 59 low string!

[xilddx]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1263852' date='Jun 10 2011, 12:44 PM']He uses his Martin signature model mostly nowadays - he had the original refurbished by Martin & doesn't take it out very often anymore apparently.

I had my Fylde set up in Carthy tuning for a while - CGCDGA. The strings were massively heavy, something like a 17 or 19 top string & a 59 low string![/quote]
Ah yes of course he does, I wonder if he still records with his old one.

So is that his main tuning? I read somewhere he used DADEAE. I tried it and it was really hard for me to get anything pretty out of it. I think he said he had two tunings to cover four keys, two each.

[RhysP]

Here you go:

[b]It sounds like you are largely playing in DADGAD. What other tunings do you use?[/b]
"I don’t use DADGAD at all! I use a tuning that I derived from DADGAD. Davey Graham invented DADGAD and I’ve messed around with it, but it didn’t make sense for me. I wanted to work in the middle of the guitar and didn’t like working on the top four strings, which is what you have to do in DADGAD.
The first alternative tuning I used from DADGAD is DADEAE. What I did was take DADGAD and drop it a fourth. It made the sixth string unusable, but what I was left with was EADEA. So I then shift it all over, so E was the bottom string, and then stuck an E string on top. So I had EADEAE.
Because I’m a good folky I did a dropped D! So I ended up with DADEAE.
Basically I sat up all night thinking, how can I do this? I played this tuning from about 1965 to 1978".

[b]Exclusively?[/b]
"I did a lot in normal tuning also. I’ve known a song called ‘Lovely Joan’ for years. I learned the words from The Penguin Book of English Folk Song when it first came out in 1959 and I’ve been singing it ever since. I finally worked out how I could play it on the guitar in 1978, but it was too hard.
I worked out I could do it if I dropped the top string to B, so I had DADEAB. I thought yippee!
Having done this, I tried to sing and play it, but couldn’t, because it was too high. [b]So I dropped the thing a whole tone and ended up with CGCDGA, which is what I use all the time now[/b]. I found out from dropping that top string, suddenly you’re in really interesting territory. When I played in DADGAD, I felt restricted to the key of D. Some people like Pierre Bensusan can play in any key, but I can’t. But when I got to DADEAE, I found immediately I could play in two keys, D and A.
When I took the next step and ended up in CGCDGA, I found I could play in C and G. That’s the equivalent keys, but then I could play in D, F, E minor, B flat and A minor, albeit with a bit of stretch and pain! I remember thinking - you’re a genius; I’ve found another compromise in guitar tunings! And then I stood back and realised, the cello is tuned CGDA. Oops! That’s basically what I’ve got, an extra C and G, but somebody had already been there three hundred years ago".

Edited June 10, 2011 by RhysP

[steve-soar]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1263089' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:07 PM']I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks.

He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff.

It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard.

He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet.

Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine.

Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.[/quote]That brought a slight moistening to my eyes.

(Cough, cough), carry on.