Jump to content
Why become a member? ×

The Myth of Self Indulgence


Bilbo
 Share

Recommended Posts

OK, I've got the a*** :)

I keep hearing the term 'self indulgence' used whenever there is any suggestion that a musician is moving away from the groove and into the area of soloing or collective improvisation. I have heard this term since the heady days of punk when the bands I liked (Yes, Genesis etc) were dismissed by the monkey-booted, donkey-jacket wearing Philistines that surrounded me as irrelevant because of their 'self indulgence'.

Well, I am sorry, but I and many of my colleagues LIKE this stuff so, by definition, we represent an audience which means that, by definition, there is an entertainment element to this stuff. More to the point, I can't think of anything more self indulgent that singers telling me they are hurting because their girlfriend left them or how they are gonna rrrrrrrock - its a bit like those drunks you get at parties that bore you senseless with their adolescent meandering and who you only walk home with because you fear that they may collapse in the gutter and choke to death on their own vomit. An improvising player who is constantly searching within his playing or composition for new ideas and new sounds is, for me, something to be admired, feted and celebrated. I can't see that a soloist in any contemporary setting is any more self indulgent that Paganini or Yo Yo Ma, excellent musicians who are masters of their instruments. A musician who can take you somewhere emotionally without having to tell you in monosyllabic terms where they are going is a lot more interesting than the 'painting by numbers' drivel of most pop and rock music.

Watching 20 somethings playing the only three chords they know whilst they strike a pose identical to the one struck by the last 20 year old and the one before that whilst having a crowd of thousands 'saluting' them with fists in the air, waving cigarette lighters or swaying Arsenal scarves? Now THAT is self indulgent!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1277331' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:01 PM']ah Clarky, I retracted my earlier statement as I felt there would be too many that would take me too seriously :)
I support the honourable Jazz/improvised Bilbo unreservedly.[/quote]
Happy to correct my earlier post :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why the term 'self-indulgent' has become so derogatory - as far as I am concerned, the finest music is self-indulgent, i.e. composed for self satisfaction and for the sheer joy of it, rather than for a target audience. When I shut myself away and start working on ideas, I'm not thinking of anybody but myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1277384' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:34 PM']Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent?[/quote]

One man's self-indulgence is another man's virtuosity. It's about taste, and people have different tastes; no amount of ranting about it eloquently or otherwise will change those tastes substantially. Trying to resolve this one way or another is like trying to get toothpaste back in the tube.

Personally I think the OP was self-indulgent, but I'm sure others disagree. Shall we open a new thread to discuss :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1277384' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:34 PM']Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent?[/quote]

No. :)

It is what it is. Look at the Youtube views counts on the slapfests.

VERY FAST SLAP!!! VICTOR WOOTEN LIVE viewed 2,028,075 x



James Taylor - "Fire & Rain", uploaded onto Youtube about the same time, 1,870,227 views



One would be called 'self indulgent', the other not. It doesn't matter whether you like one ot the other. The audience is there for each. It is not, therefore, self-indulgence but entertainment. Yes and Genesis were stadium fillers at the height of their game, just like Take That and Justin Bieber. What's self indulgence got to do with it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is music just about enjoying yourself, or is it about entertaining an audience? Is it both? If something strikes me as being 'self-indulgent' and a bit ego-ridden I won't listen to it, but if you have an audience then I try and remember it's as much about them as it is about me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1277301' date='Jun 21 2011, 04:50 PM']I have heard this term since the heady days of punk when the bands I liked (Yes, Genesis etc) were dismissed by the monkey-booted, donkey-jacket wearing Philistines that surrounded me as irrelevant because of their 'self indulgence'.[/quote]

By 1974, my record collection could probably have been summarised as loads of Beatles, most of Yes, some other stuff.

A bit harsh, perhaps, but not wildly off-target.

I stopped buying Yes albums after 1974 because I thought they had become ... erm ... self-indulgent.

On t'other hand, the money that I saved on not buying Yes albums was more than enough to see me right for monkey boots (whatever they may be) and donkey jackets.

Oh, I went and saw the Pistols and the Damned, Siouxsie and the rest of 'em, but they never really did it for me and my decision had bugger-all to do with punk. I was more interested in The Motors and Tom Petty to tell the truth.

I just thought that Yes had nothing left to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going off the Wooten and James Taylor videos,which are both great-is there anything more self indulgent
than sitting alone with an acoustic guitar? It's not a bad thing,far from it,but it is still very self indulgent-possibly
even more than someone like Victor improvising a solo as a guest at a Dave Matthews Band gig. Yet,I'm sure
that more people would say it about Wooten than they would of Taylor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1277389' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:40 PM']Some, super elite, hyper, mega, self indulgent SELFINDULGANTISM for you.

Notice the complete lack of melody, shape, form, poise, groove, beauty (abstract or otherwise) in it....!




Yes folks it's COMPLETELY IMPROVISED.[/quote]

This is a classic case of me judging a book by its cover. I saw Keith Jarrett and was a little weary, but that whole thing was really quite brilliant, poignant and moving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...