Bilbo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 OK, I've got the a*** I keep hearing the term 'self indulgence' used whenever there is any suggestion that a musician is moving away from the groove and into the area of soloing or collective improvisation. I have heard this term since the heady days of punk when the bands I liked (Yes, Genesis etc) were dismissed by the monkey-booted, donkey-jacket wearing Philistines that surrounded me as irrelevant because of their 'self indulgence'. Well, I am sorry, but I and many of my colleagues LIKE this stuff so, by definition, we represent an audience which means that, by definition, there is an entertainment element to this stuff. More to the point, I can't think of anything more self indulgent that singers telling me they are hurting because their girlfriend left them or how they are gonna rrrrrrrock - its a bit like those drunks you get at parties that bore you senseless with their adolescent meandering and who you only walk home with because you fear that they may collapse in the gutter and choke to death on their own vomit. An improvising player who is constantly searching within his playing or composition for new ideas and new sounds is, for me, something to be admired, feted and celebrated. I can't see that a soloist in any contemporary setting is any more self indulgent that Paganini or Yo Yo Ma, excellent musicians who are masters of their instruments. A musician who can take you somewhere emotionally without having to tell you in monosyllabic terms where they are going is a lot more interesting than the 'painting by numbers' drivel of most pop and rock music. Watching 20 somethings playing the only three chords they know whilst they strike a pose identical to the one struck by the last 20 year old and the one before that whilst having a crowd of thousands 'saluting' them with fists in the air, waving cigarette lighters or swaying Arsenal scarves? Now THAT is self indulgent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Bilbo, you do go on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Don't mess with Bilbo and [s]Jake[/s] his Jazz homie [attachment=83227:mythbust..._20beret.jpg] Edited June 21, 2011 by Clarky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 By definition all musicians are self indulgent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 A Jazzer speaks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 ah Clarky, I retracted my earlier statement as I felt there would be too many that would take me too seriously I support the honourable Jazz/improvised Bilbo unreservedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' post='1277321' date='Jun 21 2011, 04:56 PM']By definition all musicians are self indulgent.[/quote] indeed.... Muse.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jakesbass' post='1277331' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:01 PM']ah Clarky, I retracted my earlier statement as I felt there would be too many that would take me too seriously I support the honourable Jazz/improvised Bilbo unreservedly.[/quote] Happy to correct my earlier post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmo Valdemar Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't know why the term 'self-indulgent' has become so derogatory - as far as I am concerned, the finest music is self-indulgent, i.e. composed for self satisfaction and for the sheer joy of it, rather than for a target audience. When I shut myself away and start working on ideas, I'm not thinking of anybody but myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 What about them Jazzers, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Get with it Bilbo. People don't wave cigarette lighters anymore. They wave some hideously expensive phone type gadget that has an animated picture of a cigarette lighter app on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Yeah I agree. All musicians are tossers. The only 'pure' form of entertainment is Karaoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Some, super elite, hyper, mega, self indulgent SELFINDULGANTISM for you. Notice the complete lack of melody, shape, form, poise, groove, beauty (abstract or otherwise) in it....! Yes folks it's COMPLETELY IMPROVISED. Edited June 21, 2011 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I've never quite got it. In any "hip" musical genre, those who play exactly what they want to play without caring what anyone thinks are considered to be the epitome of integrity and authenticity. Yet to do the same in a less fashion driven genre like jazz is considered self indulgence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Mykesbass' post='1277384' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:34 PM']Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent?[/quote] One man's self-indulgence is another man's virtuosity. It's about taste, and people have different tastes; no amount of ranting about it eloquently or otherwise will change those tastes substantially. Trying to resolve this one way or another is like trying to get toothpaste back in the tube. Personally I think the OP was self-indulgent, but I'm sure others disagree. Shall we open a new thread to discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Beedster' post='1277395' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:43 PM']Trying to resolve this one way or another is like trying to get toothpaste back in the tube.[/quote] LMAO Chris I actually have a very successful method for exactly that... Edited June 21, 2011 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Mykesbass' post='1277384' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:34 PM']Almost fully support your stand Bilbo, but is there not a point (guitarists attempting to out-shred one another, bass players indulging in slap-fests, classical composers pushing boundaries for the sake of it and jazzers taking improvisation further off piste) where it becomes competitive, and having become competitive they are then doing it for their own personal achievement, not for the benefit of the listening public, thereby becoming self indulgent?[/quote] No. It is what it is. Look at the Youtube views counts on the slapfests. VERY FAST SLAP!!! VICTOR WOOTEN LIVE viewed 2,028,075 x James Taylor - "Fire & Rain", uploaded onto Youtube about the same time, 1,870,227 views One would be called 'self indulgent', the other not. It doesn't matter whether you like one ot the other. The audience is there for each. It is not, therefore, self-indulgence but entertainment. Yes and Genesis were stadium fillers at the height of their game, just like Take That and Justin Bieber. What's self indulgence got to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jakesbass' post='1277398' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:45 PM']LMAO Chris I actually have a very successful method for exactly that... [/quote] It doesn't exist without video Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Is music just about enjoying yourself, or is it about entertaining an audience? Is it both? If something strikes me as being 'self-indulgent' and a bit ego-ridden I won't listen to it, but if you have an audience then I try and remember it's as much about them as it is about me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1277301' date='Jun 21 2011, 04:50 PM']I have heard this term since the heady days of punk when the bands I liked (Yes, Genesis etc) were dismissed by the monkey-booted, donkey-jacket wearing Philistines that surrounded me as irrelevant because of their 'self indulgence'.[/quote] By 1974, my record collection could probably have been summarised as loads of Beatles, most of Yes, some other stuff. A bit harsh, perhaps, but not wildly off-target. I stopped buying Yes albums after 1974 because I thought they had become ... erm ... self-indulgent. On t'other hand, the money that I saved on not buying Yes albums was more than enough to see me right for monkey boots (whatever they may be) and donkey jackets. Oh, I went and saw the Pistols and the Damned, Siouxsie and the rest of 'em, but they never really did it for me and my decision had bugger-all to do with punk. I was more interested in The Motors and Tom Petty to tell the truth. I just thought that Yes had nothing left to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Going off the Wooten and James Taylor videos,which are both great-is there anything more self indulgent than sitting alone with an acoustic guitar? It's not a bad thing,far from it,but it is still very self indulgent-possibly even more than someone like Victor improvising a solo as a guest at a Dave Matthews Band gig. Yet,I'm sure that more people would say it about Wooten than they would of Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jakesbass' post='1277389' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:40 PM']Some, super elite, hyper, mega, self indulgent SELFINDULGANTISM for you. Notice the complete lack of melody, shape, form, poise, groove, beauty (abstract or otherwise) in it....! Yes folks it's COMPLETELY IMPROVISED.[/quote] This is a classic case of me judging a book by its cover. I saw Keith Jarrett and was a little weary, but that whole thing was really quite brilliant, poignant and moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 This thread has baffled me, I can't work out what on earth is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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