2 x 210s: Vertical or horizontal stacking?

[4 Strings]

I have 2 Hartke 2.5s (2x10 + a 5 - amazing little cabs!) and have yet to use them together but likely to at the w/e.

Someone mentioned about dispersement and how speakers behave differently if one above the other compared to one beside the other.

Can 'someone' (or indeed 'anyone') explain this again, please?

With two similar cabs, will there be any difference stacking them side by side or vertically? 4x10 either way but spit vertically or horizontally. The cab has a long horizontal port at the bottom.

Not sure I need dispersement but trying to avoid boominess as a bassy tone is preferred with this band.

Any help greatly appreciated.

[Noisyjon]

Only quickly looked but this covers it I think:
[url="http://barefacedbass.com/uploads/But%20This%20Goes%20to%2011,%20Jan%202011.pdf"]http://barefacedbass.com/uploads/But%20Thi...0Jan%202011.pdf[/url]

[xgsjx]

Having drivers on the [s]vertical [/s] horizontal plane narrows the dispersement (soundwaves bumping into each other).



Edited because I don't know my up from across. No wonder I'm crap at crosswords!

Edited June 22, 2011 by xgsjx

[escholl]

Aligning the cabs vertically will give you a more even horizontal dispersion pattern in the mid and high frequencies. It's a little more complex than that but that is the easiest way to sum it up.

It won't affect the low-frequency dispersion pattern, although the act of stacking them vertically will move some of the drivers further from the floor, which may help make the response slightly less bassy. Also, as at least one driver will likely be head-height if the cabs are stacked vertically, it may sound a lot clearer to you.

[JTUK]

ha ha !!!!

Can't see that anyone will notice... but if you can't hear, you can't hear.
Sort that out first.....................

[4 Strings]

So if I stand one vertically I get a more even horizontal dispersion. What if I stack the other next to it, does it all go to pot?

I know the effect of lifting a speaker to be nearer my head for better monitoring, I've even had 'dummy' bottom cabs (ended up too boomy so got left unplugged).

Its boominess I'm trying to avoid.

[escholl]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='1280098' date='Jun 23 2011, 08:21 PM']So if I stand one vertically I get a more even horizontal dispersion. What if I stack the other next to it, does it all go to pot?[/quote]
er, well, sort of -- but it will only make a difference in the mid and high frequencies. to be fair, you might not notice a massive difference really.

stacking cabs can help reduce 'boominess' but it depends what it's being caused by. i'm guessing you've tried EQ, have you tried anything like [url="http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp"]this[/url]? some members on here have found that to be the answer, particularly in regards to hollow wooden floors or stages, which tend to resonate sympathetically with the low frequencies.

[Adrenochrome]

I don't think anyone's answered the question about whether both 2x10 cabs together should be stacked = or arranged ||

(I don't know BTW)

[Prime_BASS]

If you are worried about boom, stack vertically.
The mids and highs will be perceived to be clearer due to the better dispersal and the higher drivers will be closer to your tabs! I think it also decreases that thing that happens when cabs are against Walls and floors, whatever that it.

At the end of the day, during sound check you can just stack them both ways and compare....

[Phil Starr]

basically if you have four speakers in a square then the sound will be beamed in a cone which narrows with increasing frequency whilst placing them in a line will radiate sound in a broad flatter beam. This is going to be better in most auditoria because more of the audience will hear a better balanced sound with more mids and highs.

Also having a speaker close to a hard floor will increase bass output by 3dB which could be good or bad depending upon what you are trying to achieve.

It is also good to have a speaker at ear height as then you will hear more mids and highs which you need to hear what you are playing. You also hear a sound which is closer to that which the audience hear.

Alex Clabers article is really worth a read. If it is possible I'd always stack vertically

[ThomBassmonkey]

Stack vertically.

Having the speakers closer to your ear outweights anything else IMO, vertical stacking is better for horizontal dispersion but don't worry about that, plenty of people (myself included) use 4x10s that supposedly suffer from the negative effect on horizontal dispersion from horizontally alligned speakers and it's never bothered me.

There's no benefit of putting them horizontally AFAIK.

[chris_b]

[quote name='escholl' post='1280159' date='Jun 23 2011, 08:57 PM']....er, well, sort of -- but it will only make a difference in the mid and high frequencies. to be fair, you might not notice a massive difference really....[/quote]
In real world situations this is probably closer to the truth.

When I played a 210 and 115 Basschat told me that using different speaker sizes gave me problems, but it didn't!

Now I'm being told I have a problem because I stack my cabs the wrong way. I don't!

People should put more trust in what their own ears tell them.

[stevie]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1280435' date='Jun 24 2011, 01:57 AM']In real world situations this is probably closer to the truth.

When I played a 210 and 115 Basschat told me that using different speaker sizes gave me problems, but it didn't!

Now I'm being told I have a problem because I stack my cabs the wrong way. I don't!

People should put more trust in what their own ears tell them.[/quote]
+1 to that!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1280435' date='Jun 23 2011, 08:57 PM']When I played a 210 and 115 Basschat told me that using different speaker sizes gave me problems, but it didn't!

Now I'm being told I have a problem because I stack my cabs the wrong way. I don't![/quote]
What you've actually been told is that there are logical alternatives to the willy-nilly tossing together of different speaker/driver combinations and equally willy-nilly tossing of cabs onto the stage with no regard to how soundwaves actually function. It's your option to ignore those alternatives, just as it's the option of others to investigate them and employ them should they find it appropriate for them.

[chris_b]

No willy-nilly or tossing going on here, mate, just an ongoing listening and evaluating exercise to find out what works for me.

And a resistance to being told that I sound like [i]x[/i] when I actually sound like [i]y[/i].

[mart]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='1280297' date='Jun 23 2011, 10:42 PM']I don't think anyone's answered the question about whether both 2x10 cabs together should be stacked = or arranged ||

(I don't know BTW)[/quote]

Good idea to use some "pictures"! In that language, isn't the "ideal" arrangement neither of these, but rather this:
|
|

Between = and || there will be very little difference.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1281102' date='Jun 24 2011, 03:12 PM']No willy-nilly or tossing going on here, mate, just an ongoing listening and evaluating exercise to find out what works for me.

And a resistance to being told that I sound like [i]x[/i] when I actually sound like [i]y[/i].[/quote]


Agree.

People don't have to be sheep, but they have to trust their ears. If they don't know any better, you can go round and round in circles
reading latest opinions of what might work.

Put the time in... check out people who have also done the same..and whose opinion you can relate to and you may get a frame of reference that amounts to something.

Reminds me of a session I did when the engr told me I was out of tune...I didn't know at the time, so I went straight out and bought a tuner. You could ask why I didn't have one anyway..but I was young and my first time out.
I now know and have the confidence to know when I am in tune or not..and I don't need a tuner to tell me.

The same goes for my cabs...the amp and the bass, for that matter. IMO.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='mart' post='1281170' date='Jun 24 2011, 04:11 PM']Good idea to use some "pictures"! In that language, isn't the "ideal" arrangement neither of these, but rather this:
|
|

Between = and || there will be very little difference.[/quote]

This was the question. Its a while ago now, but I went = in the end, all looked a bit unnecessary | on top of | with the amp teetering on the top so, rather against my usual judgement, I compromised (or at least possibly) sound for not looking silly.

On a similar question, I usually use one of these 210s for my Motown band so its a warm, roundy sort of sound (Fender P + flats etc) and it's difficult to prevent boominess. I normally stand the cab up for dispersement but was wondering whether reducing dispersement by laying flat would reduce reflectances and boominess. I often end up having to reduce the bass on the amp to reduce boominess but hate having to do this as I never want to reduce the weight of the bass for Motown.

I will experiment along these lines next time out (next Thursday) but any opinions in the meantime? Surely angling the cab back will worsen things?

[xgsjx]

A Gramma pad maybe?

Depending on your amp, maybe a smaller amp would be wise for on top of a vertical tower.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='4 Strings' post='1312797' date='Jul 22 2011, 09:56 AM']On a similar question, I usually use one of these 210s for my Motown band so its a warm, roundy sort of sound (Fender P + flats etc) and it's difficult to prevent boominess. I normally stand the cab up for dispersement but was wondering whether reducing dispersement by laying flat would reduce reflectances and boominess.[/quote]Boom is caused by too much content in the midbass, in the vicinity of 100-150Hz. Many cabs are actually built to accentuate those frequencies, as they're perceived as louder (louder sells) and because accentuating the midbass at the expense of the lows results in a smaller cab (also a sales point). But if you're on a stage or in a room that resonates in the midbass it's just too much. Laying the cab flat has no effect on the midbass frequencies, and makes the situation worse by making the mids and highs harder to hear. Lifting it above the stage by two to three feet will help tame the boom, how high depends on the frequencies that are resonating. The best tool to cure it is a parametric EQ, which allows you to dial in exactly on the boom frequency and cut it without robbing the low end as well.

[markstuk]

Also of course there are the following to consider..

1. What your rig sounds like to you 6 feet in front of it..

2. What your rig sounds like to your bandmates - usually off axis..

3. What your rig sounds like FOH (plus the PA contribution).

4. What your rig sounds like mixed up with all the other noises being produced...

It's a complex set of issues unless you're only interested in 1.

[quote name='JTUK' post='1281237' date='Jun 24 2011, 05:00 PM']Agree.

People don't have to be sheep, but they have to trust their ears. If they don't know any better, you can go round and round in circles
reading latest opinions of what might work.

Put the time in... check out people who have also done the same..and whose opinion you can relate to and you may get a frame of reference that amounts to something.

Reminds me of a session I did when the engr told me I was out of tune...I didn't know at the time, so I went straight out and bought a tuner. You could ask why I didn't have one anyway..but I was young and my first time out.
I now know and have the confidence to know when I am in tune or not..and I don't need a tuner to tell me.

The same goes for my cabs...the amp and the bass, for that matter. IMO.[/quote]

[mart]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1312892' date='Jul 22 2011, 04:00 PM']... Laying the cab flat has no effect on the midbass frequencies, and makes the situation worse by making the mids and highs harder to hear. Lifting it above the stage by two to three feet will help tame the boom, how high depends on the frequencies that are resonating. ....[/quote]
So you'd probably still want it vertical, but stood on top of a chair or beer crate or something, right? And, if I've understood this, then adjusting the height will, crudely, change which frequencies you're cutting - so raising or lowering it should help you find the ideal height to counteract the boominess.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='mart' post='1312953' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:33 AM']So you'd probably still want it vertical, but stood on top of a chair or beer crate or something, right? And, if I've understood this, then adjusting the height will, crudely, change which frequencies you're cutting - so raising or lowering it should help you find the ideal height to counteract the boominess.[/quote]+1. But it's easier to twist the frequency knob on a parametric EQ.

[thodrik]

These threads really prove to me just how clueless I am to technical stuff, yet I still love reading them!

I have two cabs bought when I was 22 based on the 'small speakers for highs, big speakers for lows' logic (2x10, 1x15). It sounds alright and until I get some money it is the best I am going to get! At least now I will have a bit of knowledge for the next time I buy a cab.

[rOB]

I do stack vertically if I'm using 2 cabinets. Better dispersion aside, its a smaller footprint on stage and lifts one cabinet closer to your ears.

If I'm only using 1 cabinet I will use an amp stand (like [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Guitar-Amplifier-Stand/8GP"]this[/url]) to point it at my ears.