2 x 210s: Vertical or horizontal stacking?

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='stevie' post='1315794' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:58 PM']He'd probably be tempted to stick it somewhere else.

You have to take Bill's contributions on here with a pinch of salt. One of his (many) regular lines is that Leo Fender didn't know how to design speakers and that guitar drivers should be stacked vertically. But go to his site and look at the guitar cab design that he is flogging for 15 dollars.[/quote]

Well I've got my guitar cab and i used to have my bass cab on the side as well. Not really a problem. Also Alex Claber who is definetely an expert in speaker cabinet design concurs with stacking 2x10s vertically. Someone has already posted the link to his website.

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315830' date='Jul 25 2011, 03:31 PM']It has speakers crossfired and pointing upward. Not like Fenders, but retaining the width requirement to fit amplifiers. Fender ha the option of making amps that fit, and chose not to.[/quote]

Stands that raise and tilt guitar speakers have been available certainly since the 1960s. I imagine Fender offered them; Vox certainly did. Angled cabs have also been available since the 1960s.

What difference do you think crossfiring drivers make?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' post='1315869' date='Jul 25 2011, 03:56 PM']Stands that raise and tilt guitar speakers have been available certainly since the 1960s. I imagine Fender offered them; Vox certainly did. Angled cabs have also been available since the 1960s.

What difference do you think crossfiring drivers make?[/quote]

Moves the cone centers closer together, broadening with dispersion.

[skankdelvar]

In common with many topics here, cab stacking is ultimately a matter of taste. One can doubtless prove the science of the matter, which is to the good. One may experiment. But thereafter it all depends whether one perceives a difference and - if so - whether one 'likes' the difference. Some may. Some may not.

It is beside the point to assert that the ability to perceive a difference or 'not liking it' may be down to years of brainwashing or a faulty appreciation of tonal 'goodness'. Too late. One hears through one's ears alone and one likes what one likes.

Attempting to persuade a distant basschatter that their taste is in some way 'wrong' is a shoal upon which many have perished. In any event, it's a wonderful world with a flavour for everyone.

Edited July 25, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315930' date='Jul 25 2011, 11:38 AM']Moves the cone centers closer together, broadening with dispersion.[/quote]
True, but that's only a small part of the equation. Here's the rest:
[url="http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/webster.cs.ucr.edu/AudioStuff/audioStuff.html"]http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/webster....audioStuff.html[/url]

[quote]it all depends whether one perceives a difference and - if so - whether one 'likes' the difference. Some may. Some may not.[/quote]If you're standing in front of the cab with it tilted so the axis is aimed at your ears you won't be able to tell much, if any, difference between a vertical and horizontal alignment. If you're in the audience, off-axis, and the main sound source is your rig rather than the PA the difference will be quite obvious.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1315964' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:15 PM']If you're in the audience, off-axis, and the main sound source is your rig rather than the PA the difference will be quite obvious.[/quote]
If one is out there amid the audience and one can perceive it then, yes, it might indeed be obvious.

[Mr. Foxen]

I think audience on axis, but guitard's ears off axis is usually the problem scenario.

[stevie]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1315972' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:23 PM']If one is out there amid the audience and one can perceive it then, yes, it might indeed be obvious.[/quote]
This is a solution looking for a problem. Have you ever been in an audience and not been able to hear the guitar?

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315981' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:27 PM']I think audience on axis, but guitard's ears off axis is usually the problem scenario.[/quote]
That would be one vote for Leo Fender then.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' post='1315987' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:29 PM']That would be one vote for Leo Fender then.[/quote]

No, Fender didn't make tall stacks, they made short combos, and guitartists tend to sit on them or stand in front of them, so all the top end misses them and icepicks anyone in front..

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315993' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:33 PM']No, Fender didn't make tall stacks, they made short combos, and guitartists tend to sit on them or stand in front of them, so all the top end misses them and icepicks anyone in front..[/quote]
Sorry, I was too cryptic. When standing in front of and above a speaker, a guitarist will hear more and smoother mids and highs when the speakers are side by side than when they are vertical, assuming the top of each cab is positioned at the same height.

Edited July 25, 2011 by stevie

[xgsjx]

So in other words a 2x10 is better for directional on stage monitoring if horizontal & better for backline for the audience & the rest of the band to hear if vertical?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' post='1316010' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:41 PM']Sorry, I was too cryptic. When standing in front of and above a speaker, a guitarist will hear more and smoother mids and highs when the speakers are side by side than when they are vertical, assuming the top of each cab is positioned at the same height.[/quote]

The top of the cab will be higher if it is stacked vertically, that is a bunch of the point.

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1316026' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:54 PM']The top of the cab will be higher if it is stacked vertically, that is a bunch of the point.[/quote]
I agree that getting the cab to a height where you can here it properly is what matters. When you've got that sorted, it is a matter of personal preference what speaker configuration you use.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315993' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:33 PM']No, Fender didn't make tall stacks, they made short combos, and guitartists tend to sit on them or stand in front of them, so all the top end misses them and icepicks anyone in front..[/quote]

Exactly... back in my sound engineering days I would regularly be deafened in 400+ seater venues by guitarists refusing to turn down their amps... "but it's only 50 watts and I can't hear myself properly"... worst offenders were those of the Hank Marvin school of tinnitus-inducing ice-pick guitar sounds!

ficelles

[Marvin]

[quote name='stevie' post='1315794' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:58 PM']He'd probably be tempted to stick it somewhere else.

You have to take Bill's contributions on here with a pinch of salt. One of his (many) regular lines is that Leo Fender didn't know how to design speakers and that guitar drivers should be stacked vertically. But go to his site and look at the guitar cab design that he is flogging for 15 dollars.[/quote]

To be fair to Bill, the description that goes with that cab on his site is fairly consistent with what he always says. The cab is described as a 'Plan B' so hence I took it to mean a compromise.

I always read what Bill and Alex have to say on cab design. Their criticisms seem to be aimed at manufacturers who want their target customer to think they are getting a truly engineered product when it isn't, especially high end gear. Most mass manufactured cabs are simply constructed boxes with drivers in them with little or no acoustic engineering involved in it's design.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1316043' date='Jul 25 2011, 01:11 PM']Exactly... back in my sound engineering days I would regularly be deafened in 400+ seater venues by guitarists refusing to turn down their amps... "but it's only 50 watts and I can't hear myself properly"... worst offenders were those of the Hank Marvin school of tinnitus-inducing ice-pick guitar sounds!

ficelles[/quote]The number one complaint of FOH engineers in 10,000 plus seat venues is stacks. To get eight twelves crunching hard the dB level from a stack can overpower even a 30kW PA at 100 feet, and FOH engineers go mad trying to get a balanced sound when said stacks are cutting a swath like a laser beam on-axis. With PA support no guitar'd player needs more than a 2x12. But Jimi and Pete and Richie etc., etc., etc., used stacks, so therefore...

[JTUK]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1316071' date='Jul 25 2011, 06:41 PM']I always read what Bill and Alex have to say on cab design. Their criticisms seem to be aimed at manufacturers who want their target customer to think they are getting a truly engineered product when it isn't, especially high end gear. Most mass manufactured cabs are simply constructed boxes with drivers in them with little or no acoustic engineering involved in it's design.[/quote]


But, of course, the insinutation is that they'd make a better box.
But the only people buying that argument are some people on sites like these.
No one else seems to be buying their product.

You don't see their kit out in the real world so maybe their argument hasn't reached there..or people don't fancy the product.

[Marvin]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1316176' date='Jul 25 2011, 08:02 PM']But, of course, the insinutation is that they'd make a better box.
But the only people buying that argument are some people on sites like these.
No one else seems to be buying their product.

You don't see their kit out in the real world so maybe their argument hasn't reached there..or people don't fancy the product.[/quote]

I think it's more a matter of cost. To make a box like that of Bill's design is probably not cost effective for mass production. I've had a stab at it (my wood work wasn't up to scratch) and a good friend of mine on here has made one. The actual making of the 'box' is quite involved.

Are they better boxes? Well, my friend built a Jack12 and he said it blew the arse off his 4x10. The cabinet design was that efficient. I have no personal experience though.

Why don't we get 4x10's stacked vertically? Probably because as consumers we are very conservative and would rather it looked nice rather than worked effectively.

Major manufacturers would loose a lot of margin to make cabs like the designs of Bill and Alex.

One may like to compare the whole issue to when James Dyson was getting nowhere with his 'cyclone' vacuum cleaner. Now everyone makes one.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1316190' date='Jul 25 2011, 03:16 PM']One may like to compare the whole issue to when James Dyson was getting nowhere with his 'cyclone' vacuum cleaner. Now everyone makes one.[/quote]
I prefer the example of Ed Villchur. In 1954 he invented the acoustic suspension speaker. He showed it to every major speaker manufacturer, all of whom said, in effect "If something like this worked our engineers would have already invented it". As a result he started his own company, Acoustic Research. By 1963 AR held a 70% market share. The company tanked after he sold it to Teledyne in 1967 and the bean counters took over.
[quote]I think it's more a matter of cost. To make a box like that of Bill's design is probably not cost effective for mass production.[/quote]Not at the price the average player wants to pay [i]if[/i] they're to maintain their profit margins. Alex manages it, but only because he doesn't have their overhead for marketing and distribution, which accounts for about 40% of what you pay for a store bought mass produced cab.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1315993' date='Jul 25 2011, 05:33 PM']No, Fender didn't make tall stacks, they made short combos, and guitartists tend to sit on them or stand in front of them, so all the top end misses them and icepicks anyone in front..[/quote]

That has more to do with the fundamental limitations of 12" speakers than eg the small advantage gained by crossfiring. I'm a big fan of angling speakers back on stands to get the guitardist's ears closer to the 'beam of death' but a neater solution (IMO) is Jay Mitchell's 'foam donut'
[url="http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/speaker/foamdonut/foamdonut.html"]http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps.../foamdonut.html[/url]

Dead simple to implement and the beauty is you can tailor the foam type/thickness and size of the hole to give some flexibility to freq cutoff and amount of attenuation.

[Mr. Foxen]

That only works for one speaker, this is all about aligning multiple speakers. Really the right way to do multiple speakers is low pass all but one, then maybe donut that, so you have the low end sensitivity of multiple speakers, and the dispersion of one.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1316092' date='Jul 25 2011, 06:59 PM']The number one complaint of FOH engineers in 10,000 plus seat venues is stacks. To get eight twelves crunching hard the dB level from a stack can overpower even a 30kW PA at 100 feet, and FOH engineers go mad trying to get a balanced sound when said stacks are cutting a swath like a laser beam on-axis. With PA support no guitar'd player needs more than a 2x12. But Jimi and Pete and Richie etc., etc., etc., used stacks, so therefore... [/quote]

I guess history is to blame... big guitar amps developed before big PAs and every guitarist wants the look.

Last time I saw Mason Neely (Cerys Matthews) he had a tiny tiny Fender guitar combo onstage and sounded great through the PA. Gary Moore used to have a little Fender combo mic'ed up behind his wall of (unused) Marshall cabs.

Word is most of Status Quo's wall of 4x12s don't even have speakers in...

ficelles

[ficelles]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1316247' date='Jul 25 2011, 08:56 PM']That has more to do with the fundamental limitations of 12" speakers than eg the small advantage gained by crossfiring. I'm a big fan of angling speakers back on stands to get the guitardist's ears closer to the 'beam of death' but a neater solution (IMO) is Jay Mitchell's 'foam donut'
[url="http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/speaker/foamdonut/foamdonut.html"]http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps.../foamdonut.html[/url]

Dead simple to implement and the beauty is you can tailor the foam type/thickness and size of the hole to give some flexibility to freq cutoff and amount of attenuation.[/quote]

I sense a beam blocker discussion approaching...

ficelles

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1316247' date='Jul 25 2011, 03:56 PM']That has more to do with the fundamental limitations of 12" speakers than eg the small advantage gained by crossfiring. I'm a big fan of angling speakers back on stands to get the guitardist's ears closer to the 'beam of death' but a neater solution (IMO) is Jay Mitchell's 'foam donut'
[url="http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps/prii/speaker/foamdonut/foamdonut.html"]http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strato/amps.../foamdonut.html[/url]

Dead simple to implement and the beauty is you can tailor the foam type/thickness and size of the hole to give some flexibility to freq cutoff and amount of attenuation.[/quote]It works, but isn't at all a new or novel idea. Earl Geddes has been using foam for quite some time, and without a hole in the middle, as that's not what makes it work. The underlying principle is diffraction; a thirty year old example is the JBL 2301 perforated plate horn lens.
[url="http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/acoustic_lens_family1.pdf"]http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/acoustic_lens_family1.pdf[/url]

Beam blockers use the same principle.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice