Why do the old ones sound better?

[redstriper]

I have a '63 Jazz that sounds fab to my ears, it's very fat and warm sounding and I've never found another Jazz (or anything else) with so much clear depth and warmth in the tone.
The closest I've found were a pair of late 60s Jazzes, but even those didn't quite have the same depth, although they both sang like birds.
My 63 had a new body and fingerboard fitted in the 70s, so it isn't original and I don't know how much that work altered the basic tone.
It's been my only bass for over 30 years and I've taken it for granted, not realising how hard it would be to find another with the same tone.

I recently bought a new Mex Jazz and a Squier CV, looking to retire my old one from gigging and both are very nice instruments to play, but neither has the same deep, gutsy punch of the old one - they aren't anywhere near as loud either.
I have played some new American standards in shops too and not been moved by the sound and all the 70s and 80s models I have played have left me cold.

What is it about the early (pre CBS) Fender basses that gives them 'that' sound?
Why can't it be replicated in modern instruments, after all it's not rocket science and copying a pick up design can't be so hard can it?
Are the American Vintage and Custom Shop models more likely to have 'that' sound?

My new Mex Jazz is the closest in tone that I have found to my old Jazz and I've bought, sold and tried a lot of basses since starting this quest, including some quite expensive ones.
I just bought a Wizard 84 neck pick up to see if that improves the tone, I may also try swapping the pick ups and electrics from my old Jazz, to see if that's where the tone lies.
I only use the neck pick up, mostly with the tone rolled off with old flat wound strings for an old school reggae/soul sound.

Is it all in the mind, or do the old ones sound better and if so - why?

[Lozz196]

I don`t know if it`s the age that`s the factor, or just the specific piece(es?) of wood used. Of my two Precisions, the 97 is noticeably deeper and more resonant, however both are US Standards, and both have been set up properly.

[GBass]

Fascinating!

[Ou7shined]

I wonder if it's the inconsistencies in the wire used for the windings that could be the biggest factor - todays wire will be 99.9999% perfect.

[nottswarwick]

Don't know, but is your old fave no longer up to the job of gigging? Why retire it?

[ThomBassmonkey]

If you have the means, it'd be interesting to do a blind test. Record the same bass part over the same minimalistic backing track (changing nothing but the bass volume so that it's equal on all the versions) and see which people think is which (and which people prefer).

[redstriper]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='1280319' date='Jun 23 2011, 10:59 PM']Don't know, but is your old fave no longer up to the job of gigging? Why retire it?[/quote]

There are 3 things made me start looking for a new bass
1: Weight - the replacement body is solid maple and the bass weighs 10.5lbs.
2: Playability - the replacement fingerboard has massive jumbo frets, there's a dead spot and the intonation isn't perfect.
3: Looks - it's an ugly beast.

My plan is to keep the old 'un for recording and special gigs, while using a new one for gigs.
I just don't understand why the new ones don't have the tone of my oldie.

[redstriper]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1280402' date='Jun 24 2011, 12:29 AM']If you have the means, it'd be interesting to do a blind test. Record the same bass part over the same minimalistic backing track (changing nothing but the bass volume so that it's equal on all the versions) and see which people think is which (and which people prefer). [/quote]
Thanks for the idea - I'll do that asap and I will appreciate any opinions.
It won't be a completely level playing field because of the different strings - all 3 are strung with flats, but different gauges and ages.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1280406' date='Jun 24 2011, 12:33 AM']1: Weight - the replacement body is solid maple and the bass weighs 10.5lbs.[/quote]


This may have something to do with it's tone..

[chris_b]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1279997' date='Jun 23 2011, 06:53 PM']....What is it about the early (pre CBS) Fender basses that gives them 'that' sound?....[/quote]
You don't have a pre CBS Fender!!

[redstriper]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1280419' date='Jun 24 2011, 01:04 AM']You don't have a pre CBS Fender!![/quote]

True - I presumed it was the pre cbs bits that gave it the sound, but maybe it's the other bits.

[henry norton]

Maybe the bass has just 'that' sound because you've had it years, you're used to it, you like it and consequently any other bass will always fall short in comparison. Have you thought of replacing your heavy old workhorse with something custom made? You could probably finance a complete build just selling the hardware and pickups from your bass

[danweb22]

maybe it's the colour? [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=142836&hl="]thread here[/url]

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1280406' date='Jun 24 2011, 12:33 AM']There are 3 things made me start looking for a new bass
1: Weight - the replacement body is solid maple and the bass weighs 10.5lbs.
2: Playability - the replacement fingerboard has massive jumbo frets, there's a dead spot and the intonation isn't perfect.
3: Looks - it's an ugly beast.

My plan is to keep the old 'un for recording and special gigs, while using a new one for gigs.
I just don't understand why the new ones don't have the tone of my oldie.[/quote]

It's the maple body for sure. That thing is clearly unique, you may never replicate it exactly, however hard you try.

And as for point 2, refret, and set it up so the dead spots and intonation are gone.

[Low End Bee]

My 2007 Precision is a better sounding and playing bass than the 1968 I had.
I don't buy the vintage is better thing.
I've played lots of old ones. I've played lots of new ones. There's not much in it for me, Some old ones are better than some new ones and vice versa.

(Runs off to Anderson Shelter...)

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1280569' date='Jun 24 2011, 09:45 AM']It's the maple body for sure. That thing is clearly unique, you may never replicate it exactly, however hard you try.

And as for point 2, refret, and set it up so the dead spots and intonation are gone.[/quote]
Come off it DV, the body wood isn't going to make it louder. It's down to the 'tronics.

[Ancient Mariner]

Tone is always a sum of the parts used, and swapping out one or 2 things will only take you so far. The hard and heavy body will certainly affect tonality, and it sounds like you've got an overwound pickup (hence the higher volume - also a lack of treble tones don't bother you). And pieces of wood that have been vibrated together for 30+ years will have been altered compared to a new instrument (there is a playing in time for guitars, and presumably basses).

And it may well be that you've found a truly great instrument (at least for your own ears). I've spent time in music stores, working my way through selections of certain guitar types, and there are often just one or 2 out of 20 or 30 instruments of the same type that are really great, with most be just tolerable and the occasional dog.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1279997' date='Jun 23 2011, 10:53 AM']Is it all in the mind, or do the old ones sound better and if so - why?[/quote]
It's all in the mind, unless you have faith it isn't. But if you go by what people can hear and not how they feel when they are playing something then the difference is undetectable. No one can tell vintage by listening alone.

It can't be the wood because you hear the vintage tone even with a new body and fingerboard. It's called psychoacoustic phenomena and is well documented as a science. No one can hear age in a controlled test. Many claim they can but no one can do it. The color of the room you are in will influence your perception of sound, your expectations of an instrument and your resulting filtering of what you select to hear or not will have a major influence on how something sounds to you.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1280287' date='Jun 23 2011, 02:35 PM']I wonder if it's the inconsistencies in the wire used for the windings that could be the biggest factor - todays wire will be 99.9999% perfect.[/quote]
That's just an assumption. Have you seen any data based on measuring? Almost all if not all vintage explanations are simply conjecture with some anecdotal evidence in the best cases.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1280402' date='Jun 23 2011, 04:29 PM']If you have the means, it'd be interesting to do a blind test. Record the same bass part over the same minimalistic backing track (changing nothing but the bass volume so that it's equal on all the versions) and see which people think is which (and which people prefer). [/quote]
Talk Bass has numerous threads doing this, the usual pattern is no one can get it right until the answer is revealed and then all the [i]experts[/i] chime in about how they new that. One of the more famous ones people couldn't tell the difference between a jazz neck pickup and a pbass.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1280406' date='Jun 23 2011, 04:33 PM']the replacement body is solid maple[/quote]
This simply isn't vintage Fender by any definition. The tone may be awesome but unless it's coming all from the decal it's not vintage

I've had a few solid maple bodied basses and I loved them.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1280563' date='Jun 24 2011, 01:39 AM']Maybe the bass has just 'that' sound because you've had it years, you're used to it, you like it and consequently any other bass will always fall short in comparison.[/quote]
Like your mom, you could replace her with another perfectly fine mom or even a better one but it just won't be the same.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1280656' date='Jun 24 2011, 10:43 AM']Talk Bass has numerous threads doing this, the usual pattern is no one can get it right until the answer is revealed and then all the [i]experts[/i] chime in about how they new that. One of the more famous ones people couldn't tell the difference between a jazz neck pickup and a pbass.[/quote]

Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

I'm sure the basses will sound slightly different, I don't believe that older=better though.

[wateroftyne]

To answer the OP...

IMO, they don't.

[Beedster]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1280690' date='Jun 24 2011, 11:02 AM']To answer the OP...

IMO, they don't.[/quote]

Or 'because you expect them to'