15" speaker advice needed

[Neuroscar]

Im thinking about making my own 15" cab since the shipping rates of the really good cabs are way too high for me. Their prices too.
My local technician here told me he would make one for me for about 1/3 the price of the "famous" ones, whatever that means.
So im considering my options.

Another 2x15 (im already using a 2x15 fender bassman in the studio we are playing, which unfortunately isnt what it used to be-needs service) would be ideal, but I will be going for a 1x15 with an adjustable extra 6" for some extra mids or highs or so.
Need something i can actually carry around if needed and i dont have a truck.

So, i read some reviews, and im between eminence legend 15" and celestion BL15 (300 or 400), green series, for a more warm/vintage/low-endish tone.

What would you suggest? We're playing mostly heavy rock stuff so lots of low end is needed.
Any other speakers advice?
Neodymium or the older heavy stuff?

[Phil Starr]

there's nothing much wrong with either of the speakers you suggest at the price, I'd go for the 15-400 by the way.

Going neo won't change your sound per-se but there are some well regarded speakers out there that happen to be neo. You have to decide if you want to save your back and lighten your wallet!

My 15 has a Peavey Black Widow in it which I picked up cheap. Nice sound but pricey, Peavey's box was all wrong by the way.

Another 15 I've used is the Fane 15-500 which is great value. It's probably aimed at PA rather than bass as it behaves pretty well at cone break up, basically it has a more even response at the top end than the speakers you mention, but if you are going to use a 6 as well then that might not be a problem. It should have a more accurate bottom end than the other two speakers.

[redstriper]

Eminence 3015LF is great for low end and weighs almost nothing.
The 3015 has more mids and top if you like that sort of thing.

[Noisyjon]

I would recommend buying the Bill Fitzmaurice Omni 15 plans/design to use as it's a great bass cab.
Click this link to find out about it:
[url="http://billfitzmaurice.com/Omni15.html"]http://billfitzmaurice.com/Omni15.html[/url]

Regards,
Jon

[cliffyspliff]

I bought a Fane Colossus 15xb speaker and it sounds lovely in a cheapy old Ashdown mag 15 cab.....rated at 800 w too....

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Neuroscar' post='1286020' date='Jun 29 2011, 02:25 AM']Im thinking about making my own 15" cab[/quote]Only do so if all of this makes perfect sense and you know how to make use of it:
[url="http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/"]http://www.eminence.com/support/understand...udspeaker-data/[/url]
[url="http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd"]http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd[/url]

[muttley]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1286423' date='Jun 29 2011, 02:00 PM'][url="http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd"]http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd[/url][/quote]

That's a good piece of s/w (I was a beta tester about a dozen or so years ago... oh, I see it's still in beta )

Go for the Celestion driver. Eminence speakers are crap. BTW, Celestion used to offer a cab design/info service (they certainly did when I worked for the company) so it may be worth checking their website or giving them a call/e-mail.

Neodymium used to be a problem in terms of its instability at high temperatures (pro loudspeaker motor systems can get very warm when driven hard). That, coupled with relatively high cost, ruled it out of many applications. However, newer alloys coupled with good quality Chinese sources have addressed these issues. I've been out of the game for a few years now so don't know what the latest thought is on neo but I would say go for it. Your back will thank you!

[redstriper]

[quote name='muttley' post='1286462' date='Jun 29 2011, 02:26 PM']Eminence speakers are crap.[/quote]

Really?

I've had them in my cabs for years and never even noticed the crapness, but thanks for the heads up.

And all the Barefaced range are crap - better tell Alex Claber, I'm sure he'd like to know and Bill Fitz will be interested since he also recommends them.

[xgsjx]

Binatone speakers FTW!

[muttley]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1286509' date='Jun 29 2011, 03:15 PM']Really?

I've had them in my cabs for years and never even noticed the crapness, but thanks for the heads up.

And all the Barefaced range are crap - better tell Alex Claber, I'm sure he'd like to know and Bill Fitz will be interested since he also recommends them.[/quote]

Perhaps I came across as a little harsh, but all the Eminence drivers I have seen looked like a dog's breakfast. Yes, they make a noise but then a 2CV will also get you from A to B.

[quote name='redstriper' post='1286509' date='Jun 29 2011, 03:15 PM']And all the Barefaced range are crap - better tell Alex Claber, I'm sure he'd like to know and Bill Fitz will be interested since he also recommends them.[/quote]

Sorry, I don't understand the point you are making here. I gave my opinion. Others are entitled to theirs, surely?

[redstriper]

[quote name='muttley' post='1286561' date='Jun 29 2011, 03:57 PM']Sorry, I don't understand the point you are making here. I gave my opinion. Others are entitled to theirs, surely?[/quote]

My point is that I disagree with your opinion and so do a lot of more informed people and please don't call me surely

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='muttley' post='1286462' date='Jun 29 2011, 09:26 AM']I've been out of the game for a few years now so don't know what the latest thought is on neo[/quote]
More than a few I'd say. Neo has owned the high end PA genre ($5k and up per cab) for a decade, musical instruments for the last five years. But as of recently the price has skyrocketed due to predatory trade practices by the Chinese. And Eminence didn't get to be the #1 driver manufacturer in the world by producing crap.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[alexclaber]

[quote name='muttley' post='1286462' date='Jun 29 2011, 02:26 PM']I've been out of the game for a few years now...[/quote]

Yes, you can tell!

There are a lot of 'crap' speakers out there, though in most cases it's either because they're too compromised to get them down to a certain price point or they're being inappropriately used. Both Eminence and Celestion make speakers that I wouldn't use if they paid me but conversely they both make some decent drivers that I like, though for our needs Eminence's Kappalite range perform better than anything Celestion currently makes, regardless of cost.

As anyone in the industry will confirm, the price of neo is going through the roof and looks set to remain very high for the forseeable future. If you want to build a cab with a neo driver or want to buy a cab containing neo drivers, do something about it now or you could pay a lot more or not be able to get the neo products at all. I don't envisage Barefaced cabs using neo drivers for much longer and I'll be surprised if anyone else in the bass cab market can do so. China has almost all the supply and they can use most of it themselves, so they're taxing exports heavily and have more than halved the annual export quota.

The back story behind this is quite enlightening: There used to be neodymium refineries in the USA and Australia but China undercut their prices so much in the 1990s that they closed down. Now Chinese wages are going up and they're starting to try to do something about the nasty environmental impact of producing magnets (of any sort), so the cost of production is going up. Furthermore the growth of the wind turbine and electric/hybrid car industry has massively increased the demand for neodymium. And now, as neodymium isn't the most pleasant thing to produce, China are taking the view that they'd like to only produce the neodymium for the products they consume themselves but the rest of the world has almost zero ability to produce neodymium for their own use and it takes a good few years to re-open a mine and refining plant let alone build new mines and plants. Hence the reduced export quotas, increased export taxes and rapidly escalating market price. Fun...

[muttley]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1286571' date='Jun 29 2011, 04:08 PM']More than a few I'd say. Neo has owned the high end PA genre ($5k and up per cab) for a decade, musical instruments for the last five years.[/quote]

Yes, I knew about the dominance of neo in PA. It's not [i]that[/i] long that I've been out of the industry . But for MI, do you mean non-guitar applications?

[muttley]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1286582' date='Jun 29 2011, 04:16 PM']As anyone in the industry will confirm, the price of neo is going through the roof and looks set to remain very high for the forseeable future.[/quote]

Thanks for that info. I guess the situation as it was was unsustainable. Does this mean a (partial) reversion to ferrite?

And I promise to say no more on the subject of Eminence .

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='muttley' post='1286649' date='Jun 29 2011, 11:57 AM']Yes, I knew about the dominance of neo in PA. It's not [i]that[/i] long that I've been out of the industry . But for MI, do you mean non-guitar applications?[/quote]Guitar is the one area where neo has not yet made major inroads, because most guitar drivers don't use very large magnets nor have high xmax values.

[muttley]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1286746' date='Jun 29 2011, 06:01 PM']Guitar is the one area where neo has not yet made major inroads, because most guitar drivers don't use very large magnets nor have high xmax values.[/quote]

Thanks, that's what I assumed. I would have thought the main reason is that neo motor assemblies don't have the same non-linearities as AlNiCo or ferrite systems, therefore won't impart the same distortion characteristics as drivers using those materials.

Cost issues aside, it seems a no-brainer to specify neo for other MI cabs, but musicians can be a conservative bunch, hence my uncertainty on what the current thinking stands regarding widespread adoption.

[alexclaber]

You could design a neo motor to have much the same non-linearities as AlNiCo or ferrite motors by changing the steel parts, you could even stick some steel in to get similar eddy currents but with the tiny magnets and lightweight frames of most guitar speakers there really isn't much point to the extra cost.

This is an interesting read: [url="http://www.choruscars.com/Chorus_NEO_WhitePaper.pdf"]http://www.choruscars.com/Chorus_NEO_WhitePaper.pdf[/url]

[Monckyman]

At the risk of being shot down again, I suggest the OP not get put off by all this technical stuff.
If you feel like making a box, make a box.
You can only learn from it. if what you learn is that using software to design your next box is a good idea, then it`s still worth it.
If you get a good box, result.
Point is to do something.
MM

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1286571' date='Jun 29 2011, 04:08 PM']And Eminence didn't get to be the #1 driver manufacturer in the world by producing crap.[/quote]
Just because you're the world's no. 1 manufacturer doesn't mean you don't produce crap. There isn't a natural relationship between size and quality. Look at General Motors.

[deepbass5]

[quote name='stevie' post='1286899' date='Jun 29 2011, 08:10 PM']Just because you're the world's no. 1 manufacturer doesn't mean you don't produce crap. There isn't a natural relationship between size and quality. Look at General Motors. [/quote]

I agree to some extent, what annoys me about some of the leading brands, is when they move away from their flag ship models that got them the recognition and status, then start producing compromised designs for the beginner market and make misleading advertising statements as to their performance. Just to get a piece of that market. Basically build down to a price.

So my advice is buy a reputable brand second-hand cab from someone on hear. why bother making something that other people do better. Probably looks better and has a re-sale value. I have read up enough on the subject initially to do the same, but the more I learned the less sure I was about starting.

Bill and Alex have said it all on here many times, and they could name a few companies that are happy to compromise their integrity for a share of the most profitable end of the market.

[muttley]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1286791' date='Jun 29 2011, 06:41 PM']You could design a neo motor to have much the same non-linearities as AlNiCo or ferrite motors by changing the steel parts, you could even stick some steel in to get similar eddy currents but with the tiny magnets and lightweight frames of most guitar speakers there really isn't much point to the extra cost.[/quote]

Static performance, yes. Shaped pole pieces, correct over/under hang and offset, even steering magnets. Dynamic behaviour? I expect that's a bit more tricky... Not tried it myself, though so can't properly comment, but with the help of time-variant FEA and a generous dose of Mr Klippel's kit I'm sure someone has done it.

[muttley]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1286857' date='Jun 29 2011, 07:41 PM']At the risk of being shot down again, I suggest the OP not get put off by all this technical stuff.
If you feel like making a box, make a box.
You can only learn from it. if what you learn is that using software to design your next box is a good idea, then it`s still worth it.
If you get a good box, result.
Point is to do something.
MM[/quote]

Wise words. JFDI .

[4 Strings]

OP didn't want to pay for delivery costs so s/h perhaps limited to very local.

(otherwise I'd have to advise s/h too.)

[Neuroscar]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1286857' date='Jun 29 2011, 09:41 PM']At the risk of being shot down again, I suggest the OP not get put off by all this technical stuff.
If you feel like making a box, make a box.
You can only learn from it. if what you learn is that using software to design your next box is a good idea, then it`s still worth it.
If you get a good box, result.
Point is to do something.
MM[/quote]

Thanks for the replies im learning new and usefull stuff here, although its hard to understand everything.

I just want to clarify again, that im not really making the cab myself. The technician will do that, i will just pick the components.
And since we talked about the rest, the actual speaker is the thing missing.
He told me he always prefered working with celection since he considers it to be the best, but hes kinda old school and thats why im asking for some more info on other stuff that are maybe more fitting for me.

And about buying a reputable brand second-hand cab from here, im all up (matamp for example), but an extra 80gbp is surely added to the price for shipping to Greece so..