Band payments for songwriting, cd sales, radio play, tv adverts etc

[lanark]

Just wondering how the money from royalties etc is generally divied up (ignore any cut from the record label etc, this is just on money that comes back to the band). Whether that money comes from sales of CDs, radio plays, or even if the song is used on an advert for Nike trainers. What happens to that? I know that Jagger, Richards, Lennon and McCartney etc are vastly richer than Starr and Watts because they wrote the songs, but they still got / get money from every record sold don't they?

Just wondering how this is usually resolved.

Edited June 29, 2011 by lanark

[lowdown]

[quote name='lanark' post='1286267' date='Jun 29 2011, 11:55 AM']Just wondering how the money from royalties etc is generally divied up (ignore any cut from the record label etc, this is just on money that comes back to the band). Whether that money comes from sales of CDs, radio plays, or even if the song is used on an advert for Nike trainers. What happens to that? I know that Jagger, Richards, Lennon and McCartney etc are vastly richer than Starr and Watts because they wrote the songs, but they still got / get money from every record sold don't they?

Just wondering how this is usually resolved.[/quote]


Both of these - read up, and if applies to you - Join.
They both do a fantastic job.
PPL are really getting there act together - PRS, it goes without saying.

[url="http://www.prsformusic.com/Pages/default.aspx"]PRS[/url]

[url="http://www.ppluk.com/"]PPL[/url]




Garry

[BigRedX]

No easy answer for this as it completely depends on agreements between the band members and their contracts with management/record companies/publishers.

Technically the simplest should be for record/CD/download sales which ought to be split equally between the band members after the label etc has taken their cuts. However that's not always the case - if the frontman is also the main songwriter you might find that the label deal is solely with them and the the rest of the band is on wages.

In the end the good money always comes from the song writing. The people who've written the songs can continue to make money from performance royalties of their creations long after the band are ancient history and the records have been deleted.

That's why I believe that song writing is ultimately a far more lucrative skill for a musician than having mad technical chops.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='lanark' post='1286267' date='Jun 29 2011, 11:55 AM']Just wondering how this is usually resolved.[/quote]

Expensive lawyers......

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='lanark' post='1286267' date='Jun 29 2011, 11:55 AM']Just wondering how this is usually resolved.[/quote]

Depends on the band and what arrangement they have with each other. REM have an agreement that all songwriting credits get split equally regardless of how much work each member does on individual songs. One of the reasons for the demise of The Smiths was a disagreement over finances.

If you're asking from the point of view of your own band---basically you need to decide amongst you who gets the credit for writing.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Jagger/Richards and the rest of the stones get nothing (yes not a bean) from any stones material recorded before 1971 as they had a UK company called Nanker Phelge that royalties were paid onto before being passed onto the individual band members. Their manager at the time then got them to sign a contract transferring all payments and future earnings for everything written so far to a company called Nanker Phelge US. They assumed that this was a US subsidiary of their existing company, but it wasn't and was actually 100% owned by the manager - it seems they were robbed with a fountain pen.

[lojo]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1286748' date='Jun 29 2011, 06:02 PM']Jagger/Richards and the rest of the stones get nothing (yes not a bean) from any stones material recorded before 1971 as they had a UK company called Nanker Phelge that royalties were paid onto before being passed onto the individual band members. Their manager at the time then got them to sign a contract transferring all payments and future earnings for everything written so far to a company called Nanker Phelge US. They assumed that this was a US subsidiary of their existing company, but it wasn't and was actually 100% owned by the manager - it seems they were robbed with a fountain pen.[/quote]


Of all the sad crime that goes on , the biggest crooks in the world do it legally

[Vibrating G String]

Wikipedia, the holder of all truths, disagrees with this story.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanker_Phelge"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanker_Phelge[/url]

[Lenny B]

The main issue will be who writes the songs and whether they will keep all the publishing income (e.g. Lennon/McCartney), or whether that's shared between all band members regardless of particular contribution (e.g. Chilli Peppers, Radiohead). Both are common, but be clear what you're all agreeing to (the Spandau Ballet court case was on this)

Songwriters get an additional income stream - as a very rough example, if one person wrote 100% of all songs on an album, he'll get 8% of the wholesale price of the album for that. The whole band because of their playing on the album may get 15-20% royalty. For ease of example let's say 20% royalty. Split that 5 ways, all members get 5%, except for the songwriter who gets 5% + 8% = 13&%.

Some more info here - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508[/url]

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1288385' date='Jun 30 2011, 11:31 PM']Wikipedia, the holder of all truths, disagrees with this story.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanker_Phelge"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanker_Phelge[/url][/quote]
Perhaps Keef got it wrong in his book - or maybe I misunderstood that bit

[lanark]

[quote name='Lenny B' post='1288420' date='Jun 30 2011, 11:59 PM']The main issue will be who writes the songs and whether they will keep all the publishing income (e.g. Lennon/McCartney), or whether that's shared between all band members regardless of particular contribution (e.g. Chilli Peppers, Radiohead). Both are common, but be clear what you're all agreeing to (the Spandau Ballet court case was on this)

Songwriters get an additional income stream - as a very rough example, if one person wrote 100% of all songs on an album, he'll get 8% of the wholesale price of the album for that. The whole band because of their playing on the album may get 15-20% royalty. For ease of example let's say 20% royalty. Split that 5 ways, all members get 5%, except for the songwriter who gets 5% + 8% = 13&%.

Some more info here - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508[/url][/quote]

That's pretty much the sort of thing I was wanting to know. If we printed a CD ourselves and sold it at gigs and online but only a couple of band members write the songs, what would be the usual split of payments (stated as a percentage of the profit, ignoring the record company take etc). Obviously the song-writers would take more, but what would be normal for performers to receive? (And I'm aware that this is agreed by the band, but it's helpful to have an idea of convention before we get into the wrangling side of things).

[lowdown]

[quote name='lanark' post='1288625' date='Jul 1 2011, 09:25 AM']That's pretty much the sort of thing I was wanting to know. If we printed a CD ourselves and sold it at gigs and online but only a couple of band members write the songs, what would be the usual split of payments (stated as a percentage of the profit, ignoring the record company take etc). Obviously the song-writers would take more, but what would be normal for performers to receive? (And I'm aware that this is agreed by the band, but it's helpful to have an idea of convention before we get into the wrangling side of things).[/quote]


This is aside from what ever deal you strike up with your band mates and the writers.
You still need to look at post #2. PPL
If you have not written/co writtten the tunes - PRS-MCPS performance royalties/Mechanicals will not apply to you.
[b]However[/b] you mentioned your band CD's being used for Air play/Broadcast/Adverts, well in that case PPL will be very useful to you as a performer/sideman.
For some reason a lot of Musicians can't be arsed with PPL, but it could be a possible source of future income for you.




Garry

[BigRedX]

[quote name='lanark' post='1288625' date='Jul 1 2011, 09:25 AM']That's pretty much the sort of thing I was wanting to know. If we printed a CD ourselves and sold it at gigs and online but only a couple of band members write the songs, what would be the usual split of payments (stated as a percentage of the profit, ignoring the record company take etc). Obviously the song-writers would take more, but what would be normal for performers to receive? (And I'm aware that this is agreed by the band, but it's helpful to have an idea of convention before we get into the wrangling side of things).[/quote]
Depends entirely what agreement you come to as a band then.

For a self-financed release I'd split the money from vinylCD/download sales equally between the band members, provided that everyone also buts an equal share into the recording and production costs in the first place.

For PPL royalties it's entirely up to the individual members to join and register their interests and has no bearing on what has been agreed within the band.

If the song writers are individually names fro each song then they will obviously get extra money from performance royalties through PRS (provided of course that they join). This why I believe that song writing is an important skill as you can continue to earn money from it long after there are no CDs left to sell. Of course you can always do what Queen did on their later releases which is the split the song writing for all the songs equally between all the members. That way only the best songs get released because there's no financial incentive for a member to get an inferior song that they have written on the album to increase their potential performance royalties.

In the end how any potential money from a self-financed release is split is up to you as a band.

[Low End Bee]

We've agreed to split everything equally.
The drummer doesn't write lyrics or tunes but he can radically alter or make better a song by what he plays. I can't write drums.

Did Weller write Foxton's bassline on Down In the Tube Station? I bet he didn't. But he did write the 'song' and take the extra cash. Hmmm.

[borisbrain]

If memory serves - and I could well be wrong - even though Lennon/McCartney were the principal songwriters, they had an agreement with the rest of the band that all songwriting royalties be split, which is why Starr/Harrison were as phenomenally wealthy as the other two. Other bands have done this, while a stack more haven't, leading to some disgruntled musos or acrimonious court hearings. If there's no sharing agreement for songwriting, then of course the songwriter gets all of the songwriting royalty (the biggest royalty), while the band only gets a share of the performance royalty, which is lower. But the songwriter also gets a slice of this too if he happens to be the singer too.

There are no rules to force the songwriter to share the songwriting royalty. It's intellectual property - he's entitled. However, it's gets a bit grey over the music/lyric split. If the writer just contributes lyrics, while the band develops the tune, then the band would have a strong claim. Think about the great lyricist/composer partnerships - whether you like them or not - Bacharach & David, John/Taupin or Lloyd-Webber & Rice. Both partners get a stack of money every time someone covers their songs.

Stay groovy

BB