Pickup discussion - how to make a double bass sound good

[Mike]

Hi all

I'd be interested in starting a discussion about making your double bass sound good live, through a rig and/or PA.

I am starting to gig with my double bass and have a pickup mounted underneath the bridge. I'm not sure what it is but I remember it is a reasonably common one, and one with a low impedance that needs a preamp.

I am using a Sadowsky DI [url="http://www.sadowsky.com/accessories/preamp.html"](This one)[/url] as my pickup sounds weak and weedy when plugged in on its own.

I can't seem to get a great tone though - I know it's a cheap double bass (Andreas Zellor, well set up by Martyn Bailey) but the acoustic sound is very nice. When I plug in through my preamp into a Markbass 1x12 combo with stacks of headroom, I can get a very bassy sound but the top end doesn't sound nice and woody at all - quite crisp and brittle. I have experimented with the Markbass vintage tone control which takes off some high end but I just can't get a really lovely double bass woody sound.

So how do you all get great sounds from your double bass? Any EQ tips? What preamps or pickups do you recommend? Anyone using mics? How practical are they?

Thanks in advance. Can anyone tell me what pickup I have here if possible? The flat pickups clip under the bridge (I have removed one so you can see it here.)


Regards

Mike

[Happy Jack]

Sounds like I'm running no more than a month or two ahead of you.

I played my DB (with a Fishman BP100 pickup) through all sorts of kit, and nothing sounded really "right" until yesterday when I finally gave up and bought a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ.

Instant win.

[Doddy]

My setup is dead simple....I run a David Gage Realist direct into a Roland Cube 100. If I'm doubling on
electric,I run the upright through an Aphex Bass Xciter,then in to the Boss LS2 to match volumes between
the upright and electric and to allow for easy switch overs.

[Mike]

Ah ha - looks very interesting. I will have to check one out. Where you having the same sonic issues as me?

[halfmanhalfdrum]

[quote name='Mike' post='1290142' date='Jul 2 2011, 02:55 PM']Hi all

I'd be interested in starting a discussion about making your double bass sound good live, through a rig and/or PA.

I am starting to gig with my double bass and have a pickup mounted underneath the bridge. I'm not sure what it is but I remember it is a reasonably common one, and one with a low impedance that needs a preamp.

I am using a Sadowsky DI [url="http://www.sadowsky.com/accessories/preamp.html"](This one)[/url] as my pickup sounds weak and weedy when plugged in on its own.

I can't seem to get a great tone though - I know it's a cheap double bass (Andreas Zellor, well set up by Martyn Bailey) but the acoustic sound is very nice. When I plug in through my preamp into a Markbass 1x12 combo with stacks of headroom, I can get a very bassy sound but the top end doesn't sound nice and woody at all - quite crisp and brittle. I have experimented with the Markbass vintage tone control which takes off some high end but I just can't get a really lovely double bass woody sound.

So how do you all get great sounds from your double bass? Any EQ tips? What preamps or pickups do you recommend? Anyone using mics? How practical are they?

Thanks in advance. Can anyone tell me what pickup I have here if possible? The flat pickups clip under the bridge (I have removed one so you can see it here.)


Regards

Mike[/quote]

It depends on how loud you need to be. I play with a loud trio and I use a Custom Kent Armstrong Mag pickup through Bassbone preamp into my Ashdown JJ Burnell, 4x8 & 1x15 ABM Cabs. This works best for me. Huge volume on tap, no feedback and a DB tone that still sounds like a DB. I tried lots of other piezo pickups but just couldn't get the volume or bottom end and had huge problems with feedback.

Edited July 2, 2011 by halfmanhalfdrum

[bassace]

Yup, that's a Fishman BP-100, a notoriously difficult pickup to get a decent sound, although there are a few who can. It will certainly improve by putting a preamp in the line before our amp. The one most people like is the Fishman Platinum Pro eq. This will not only equalise any impedance mismatch - or at least go a long way towards parity - but with it you can shape your sound by the eq section, reverse the signal phase if you want to reduce feedback and it also works as a DI should you need on. It also has compression available.

In answer to the broader question, there is no pickup which is 'the best'. They all have different characteristics, all basses are different and each player's expectations are different. The best bass sound you will get will be in your room at home with no amp but that is impracticable. The second best is in a recording studio with a nice floor standing mic and no competition from other instruments. Then a mic on a live gig will do it but you run into feedback problems, also off-axis sounds from others. So the best compromise is to use a pickup that you are happy with but bear in mind, if you've got good ears you'll never be totally happy with the sound. It'll always be a compromise. Sometimes the best sound will be right where you are on stage and not quite so good in the audience, and some times vice versa. IMO I always prefer the former because if I can't enjoy my own sound I don't play so well. And your fellow musicians want to hear a good sound too.

I'm not saying all this to dispirit you but simply to try to give you an overall picture of the landscape in which your own problem sits.

I personally like a bridge wing pickup like an Underwood or Shadow. I like their warm, sustained sound very much. There are others who like the Realist which sits under one of the bridge feet - I find it a bit too bassy. And there are those who say that the Fishman Full Circle is the best of all. This takes the place of one of the bridge height adjusters if you have them. I found it to be a very uncoloured sound but to my mind lacking in sustain and general personality.

You'll get there eventually I'm sure. If you can afford it first get a ProPlat; it will be a good investment that will serve you well. Then see if there is any BCer who can lend you a Realist.

Edited July 2, 2011 by bassace

[Clarky]

You have three main choices of transducer - piezo (picks up vibrations, which you already have), magnetic ('mag') which needs steel strings and is just like an electric bass pickup (usually attaches to end of fingerboard), amd microphone. The most suitable depends on what type of sitaution you are in - if you are in a loud rock or rockabilly band, go for a mag as it cuts out feedback (which is a problem at high volumes with other transducer types), if you ar recording a mic sounds nicest, but for most situations a piezo is best. I use a Shadow 950, which is similar to an Underwood and slots into the bridge wings.

Preamps are really useful for making your DB sound more like a DB and for controlling feedback. A Fishman (most prefer the Plat Pro Bass EQ like Happy Jack just bought) or an LR Baggs are popular as these are simple to use and most have phase switches (help to control feedback) as well as notch filters (which try to eliminate the frequency that is producing the feedback).

You can usually plug your preamp into the FX return socket of your amp which turns it into a power amp so that the Fishman/Baggs/other preamp acts as the EQ section. Alternatively just plug into the front of the amp and run flat. There are acoustic/DB specific amps that are very clean sounding but these are quite pricey (Acoustic Image are superb, I have the Clarus+ head, but boy did it cost me; Phil Jones amps are very clean and can slot in nicely here too I believe)

The speaker choice is by taste. Many DB'ers swer a 10" is best to convey a DB sound but 12" is also popular. There are DB tailored speakers (eg Euphonic Audio Wizzy 10 and 12) but frankly most modern speakers should be up to the job.

I've been down the same road as you, about 9 months ahead. I have ended up using an LR Baggs Venue DI preamp (useful as it has a tuner and mute on it) into an Acoustic Image head and Wizzy 12 speaker. If I am playing a really loud gig I use a Mackie 10" PA speaker on a stand to hear myself and to try to control feedback (as its pointed at my head not the body of the DB)

Good luck!

[PTB]

Clarky's excellent post gives you all you need in terms of the various components. Here's my diagnosis of your complaint based on your symptoms.

I would suggest that your pick-up is the weak link here as others have above followed by the Sadowsky box. I use a Mark Bass 121 combo and this is very popular amongst a number of players working in London such as Orlando Shearer and our own Paul King & Sloblusine so I don't think the amp is a weak spot. It may not be to your taste of course but I would start elsewhere. As for settings, I use mine flat usually with a bit of VPF for mid cut but no VLE as this just makes it dull. Also, it has a rear port so needs space behind it - if you put it against a wall, it sounds odd and feeds back.

I use a B Band Statement pick-up system which has unfortunately been discontinued. It combines wing elements like an Underwood with a Realist-like element that goes under the bridge foot to pick up the body. It then connects to a buffer/pre-amp which lets you pre-set two blends between the two pick-ups and switch between them. I've recently bought another 2 pick-ups and a pre-amp used on TalkBass so they can be found. I find I get a great sound for the sort of stuff I play - blues & swing - and it's very feedback resistant. I'm usually about 60% bridge wings and 40% body but find that this is the main tweaking I do, more or less warmth/clarity.

I must admit to having very little personal experience with other pick-ups - I just struck lucky first time with my B-Band - but would suggest that you seek something other than the BP-100 which has a reputation for being temperamental at best. Others here will give you suggestions on this but it . However, if all my B-Bands broke, I would be tempted to replicate with an Underwood, a Realist and a Solstice or Raven Labs blender.

The Fishman Platinum Bass pre-amp that Happy Jack recommends is also very popular and has more DB-friendly eq etc than the Sadowsky box. Not sure that the Sadowsky is best placed to buffer a piezo signal either and that's a key step in the chain.

[BassBus]

I can't really add to what has been said above. It says about all you need to know. I have used a BP100 and on my first Antoni DB it sounded awful, even through various preamps. However, when my Realist packed in on my current DB I tried the BP100 on it and it really produced quite a presentable sound. I now use a Shadow SH950 which, like an Underwood, fits under the wings of the bridge. It gives a lovely full DB sound. I put that straight into an Acoustic Image Contra, no preamp. Wind the mids off altogether, everything else is flat.

[fatback]

A Full Circle got me the sound I was after straight into the amp and is amazingly feedback resistant. But it's all about the combination of elements, and it would probably be different for you.

I've got a Kent Armstrong mag pickup mounted as well, and I put one pickup into each channel of the EA Doubler. I haven't had to select the KA at all yet, but i love to know it's there as my get-out-of-jail-free card if the feedback monster wakes up.

I don't need a preamp with the Doubler, but i've been carrying a DHA EQ/DI box just in case of amp troubles. These things are a bargain - a nice parametric for £70.

[Mike]

[quote name='bassace' post='1290232' date='Jul 2 2011, 04:26 PM']Yup, that's a Fishman BP-100, a notoriously difficult pickup to get a decent sound, although there are a few who can. It will certainly improve by putting a preamp in the line before our amp. The one most people like is the Fishman Platinum Pro eq. This will not only equalise any impedance mismatch - or at least go a long way towards parity - but with it you can shape your sound by the eq section, reverse the signal phase if you want to reduce feedback and it also works as a DI should you need on. It also has compression available.

In answer to the broader question, there is no pickup which is 'the best'. They all have different characteristics, all basses are different and each player's expectations are different. The best bass sound you will get will be in your room at home with no amp but that is impracticable. The second best is in a recording studio with a nice floor standing mic and no competition from other instruments. Then a mic on a live gig will do it but you run into feedback problems, also off-axis sounds from others. So the best compromise is to use a pickup that you are happy with but bear in mind, if you've got good ears you'll never be totally happy with the sound. It'll always be a compromise. Sometimes the best sound will be right where you are on stage and not quite so good in the audience, and some times vice versa. IMO I always prefer the former because if I can't enjoy my own sound I don't play so well. And your fellow musicians want to hear a good sound too.

I'm not saying all this to dispirit you but simply to try to give you an overall picture of the landscape in which your own problem sits.

I personally like a bridge wing pickup like an Underwood or Shadow. I like their warm, sustained sound very much. There are others who like the Realist which sits under one of the bridge feet - I find it a bit too bassy. And there are those who say that the Fishman Full Circle is the best of all. This takes the place of one of the bridge height adjusters if you have them. I found it to be a very uncoloured sound but to my mind lacking in sustain and general personality.

You'll get there eventually I'm sure. If you can afford it first get a ProPlat; it will be a good investment that will serve you well. Then see if there is any BCer who can lend you a Realist.[/quote]

Great advice, thank you very much. That preamp really seems the money. I think ill go for that first and see how my pickup copes with it. Thanks for taking the time to post!

[Mike]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1290243' date='Jul 2 2011, 04:34 PM']You have three main choices of transducer - piezo (picks up vibrations, which you already have), magnetic ('mag') which needs steel strings and is just like an electric bass pickup (usually attaches to end of fingerboard), amd microphone. The most suitable depends on what type of sitaution you are in - if you are in a loud rock or rockabilly band, go for a mag as it cuts out feedback (which is a problem at high volumes with other transducer types), if you ar recording a mic sounds nicest, but for most situations a piezo is best. I use a Shadow 950, which is similar to an Underwood and slots into the bridge wings.

Preamps are really useful for making your DB sound more like a DB and for controlling feedback. A Fishman (most prefer the Plat Pro Bass EQ like Happy Jack just bought) or an LR Baggs are popular as these are simple to use and most have phase switches (help to control feedback) as well as notch filters (which try to eliminate the frequency that is producing the feedback).

You can usually plug your preamp into the FX return socket of your amp which turns it into a power amp so that the Fishman/Baggs/other preamp acts as the EQ section. Alternatively just plug into the front of the amp and run flat. There are acoustic/DB specific amps that are very clean sounding but these are quite pricey (Acoustic Image are superb, I have the Clarus+ head, but boy did it cost me; Phil Jones amps are very clean and can slot in nicely here too I believe)

The speaker choice is by taste. Many DB'ers swer a 10" is best to convey a DB sound but 12" is also popular. There are DB tailored speakers (eg Euphonic Audio Wizzy 10 and 12) but frankly most modern speakers should be up to the job.

I've been down the same road as you, about 9 months ahead. I have ended up using an LR Baggs Venue DI preamp (useful as it has a tuner and mute on it) into an Acoustic Image head and Wizzy 12 speaker. If I am playing a really loud gig I use a Mackie 10" PA speaker on a stand to hear myself and to try to control feedback (as its pointed at my head not the body of the DB)

Good luck![/quote]


[quote name='PTB' post='1290348' date='Jul 2 2011, 06:31 PM']Clarky's excellent post gives you all you need in terms of the various components. Here's my diagnosis of your complaint based on your symptoms.

I would suggest that your pick-up is the weak link here as others have above followed by the Sadowsky box. I use a Mark Bass 121 combo and this is very popular amongst a number of players working in London such as Orlando Shearer and our own Paul King & Sloblusine so I don't think the amp is a weak spot. It may not be to your taste of course but I would start elsewhere. As for settings, I use mine flat usually with a bit of VPF for mid cut but no VLE as this just makes it dull. Also, it has a rear port so needs space behind it - if you put it against a wall, it sounds odd and feeds back.

I use a B Band Statement pick-up system which has unfortunately been discontinued. It combines wing elements like an Underwood with a Realist-like element that goes under the bridge foot to pick up the body. It then connects to a buffer/pre-amp which lets you pre-set two blends between the two pick-ups and switch between them. I've recently bought another 2 pick-ups and a pre-amp used on TalkBass so they can be found. I find I get a great sound for the sort of stuff I play - blues & swing - and it's very feedback resistant. I'm usually about 60% bridge wings and 40% body but find that this is the main tweaking I do, more or less warmth/clarity.

I must admit to having very little personal experience with other pick-ups - I just struck lucky first time with my B-Band - but would suggest that you seek something other than the BP-100 which has a reputation for being temperamental at best. Others here will give you suggestions on this but it . However, if all my B-Bands broke, I would be tempted to replicate with an Underwood, a Realist and a Solstice or Raven Labs blender.

The Fishman Platinum Bass pre-amp that Happy Jack recommends is also very popular and has more DB-friendly eq etc than the Sadowsky box. Not sure that the Sadowsky is best placed to buffer a piezo signal either and that's a key step in the chain.[/quote]


Thanks gents for your extensive and interesting posts. I'm going to opt for the platinum preamp and see how it goes with my pickup and then maybe check out some of your pickup suggestions.


Thanks to all of you for your fantastic, clear, helpful advice! I'll have the best sounding DB in Essex in no time

[slobluesine]

im just down the road in Sible if you want to try a Schatten RB1 and F/deck HPF Mike. i'm real happy with that combo into a Mark Bass 1x12

Edited July 4, 2011 by slobluesine

[thisnameistaken]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, it's worth trying a few different piezo pickups. Some seem to suit some basses more than others. For example my bass is quite deep-sounding and the Bass Max I had fitted just doesn't suit it because it seems to emphasise that characteristic. I run through a Plat Pro to try to shape it a bit but I'm always disappointed with the sound. Whereas I heard the pickup on a friend's bass a couple of weeks back into another friend's GK 10" combo; she's not a great player and her bass is a cheap old ply thing, and it sounded excellent! Really woody and vocal-sounding.

I've also heard that my bass had a Realist fitted to it before I bought it and that wasn't suitable either. I am going to try a Full Circle next.

So I would say don't give up on piezos, just try some different designs and tweak the fit for a while before you dismiss them, you might find one that works very well for your bass.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Mike' post='1290142' date='Jul 2 2011, 02:55 PM']I can get a very bassy sound but the top end doesn't sound nice and woody at all - quite crisp and brittle.[/quote]

A brittle sound is a characteristic of all piezo pickups, irrespective of instrument - it's still the best choice for acoustic instruments except for a microphone.

I have had huge problems finding a bridge piezo to fit my bass until recently (thanks Keith ) so have been relying entirely on microphones. Amazingly the best sound I have yet had outside of a very expensive studio mic in a recording session last year has been an SM58 placed almost at random about 10" above the bridge.

Best is a combination of piezo and mic.

ficelles

[BassBus]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1294096' date='Jul 5 2011, 10:44 PM']A brittle sound is a characteristic of all piezo pickups...[/quote]
That's an interesting comment. I wouldn't say my Shadow is at all brittle on my Stentor. Bass and treble are flat on the Contra and it produces a lovely rounded sound.

[PaulKing]

+1 to most of that (BP100 gets bad reviews quite often ... ProPlat Pre-amp can help ... Underwood or similar gets my vote)

I'd add to it that the MB121P (is that the model you're using?) has very crisp and bright sounding piezo tweeter.
I followed the advice of several people on here and disconnected it (easy, non-permanent), and the sound from the MB improved noticeably, less spiky and harsh, but still plenty top from the 12" cone.
I run it with a 121H extension, and the horn on that gives a much more plesant top end.

You won't be sorry to try the ProPlat pre-amp. I'd bet you'd be even happier if you found a better pickup (Underwood, Shadow, Schatten, Bassmax)

[teej]

Another vote here for Underwood and Pro-Plat - the Pro-Plat preamp is the single best bit of kit I've ever bought. I've been using one for about 7 years now, I think, and it just transformed my whole work experience overnight.

[Mike]

Fantastic - thanks all. I have ordered the Platinum pro preamp. Cannot wait to hear it! Now to see if I can get a nicer pickup - I'll trawl through your suggestions for pickups - anyone else want to chime in?

[Mike]

[quote name='slobluesine' post='1292014' date='Jul 4 2011, 11:56 AM']im just down the road in Sible if you want to try a Schatten RB1 and F/deck HPF Mike. i'm real happy with that combo into a Mark Bass 1x12[/quote]

Very kind - I'll give you a shout if I fancy that. Thanks! Do you use Martyn Bailey as your luthier? He's in Sible Hedingham and is fantastic.

[Mike]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1290192' date='Jul 2 2011, 03:56 PM']Sounds like I'm running no more than a month or two ahead of you.

I played my DB (with a Fishman BP100 pickup) through all sorts of kit, and nothing sounded really "right" until yesterday when I finally gave up and bought a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ.

Instant win.[/quote]

One month later I have ordered the Platinum pro so we are still moving in the same direction hopefully - if you can give me a headsup about the problems I'm going to get in August that would be great.

[bassace]

I have an ungigged Bassmax pickup for sale if you want it. But in any case you are very welcome to try it out and I'll even pay the postage. Not an opportunist move, even if it sounds like it, I just want to help a fellow double bass player. You'll find a few guys on this forum who are helpful beyond just giving advice. Right now I'm waiting for an Epifani cab that Mr Bassman is sending me on loan to try.

[slobluesine]

[quote name='Mike' post='1296929' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:49 AM']Very kind - I'll give you a shout if I fancy that. Thanks! Do you use Martyn Bailey as your luthier? He's in Sible Hedingham and is fantastic.[/quote]

dont know of Martyn Bailey? i use Steve Laws... [url="http://www.oakdenemusicservices.co.uk/Oakdene_Music_Services/Welcome.html"]http://www.oakdenemusicservices.co.uk/Oakd...es/Welcome.html[/url]
he's in Sible too

[PaulKing]

John, you don't know Martin Bayley? Tut tut.
I've never used Martin, but I know who he is!
He's a very big name, though probably doesn't have much time of day for scratters like us. I've always found it hilarious that Steve is based in Sible, cos that's where Martin is too.

You're astonishingly lucky having two top class luthiers in one tiny village...

[geoffbassist]

I was at Martyns workshop this week. He's a great luthier who makes and repairs amazing instruments. If you need any work doing i would highly recommend him.
Geoff