Jealousy

[Marvin]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1292287' date='Jul 4 2011, 03:24 PM']*chuckle*


</endsuperchildishmode>[/quote]
I knew someone would fall for that one, AND IT WAS YOU!

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='1292371' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:20 PM']Mmm, I don't see why a bassist should do as she suggests, ie. don't get involved with the dynamics. The more musical and empathic your palette, the more musical you will be. I actually think she's talking a bit of bullshit. You should do what you think is right for the song and work it until it sounds good and wholesome. Nothing wrong with a broad set of musical principles that you you identify with, but what works for the Pixies wouldn't work necessarily elsewhere.[/quote]
But the whole point of the Pixies and in Deal's case her basslines was to keep it as simple as possible, to resist playing too much. Her bass lines fit the songs and the ethos of the band. You can only take her comments in the context of that song and of the material that the Pixies produced.

And to Doddy's point about whether can she only play root crotchet lines, I don't know but I doubt it. The point is, that was how she wanted that line to sound in that song.

[lowdown]

[quote name='silddx' post='1292371' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:20 PM']Mmm, I don't see why a bassist should do as she suggests, ie. don't get involved with the dynamics. The more musical and empathic your palette, the more musical you will be. I actually think she's talking a bit of bullshit. You should do what you think is right for the song and work it until it sounds good and wholesome. Nothing wrong with a broad set of musical principles that you you identify with, but what works for the Pixies wouldn't work necessarily elsewhere.[/quote]


Yep, i agree.


Garry

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1292385' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:29 PM']Do you play a simple line because it's the best thing to play for what you are doing,or do you play it because it's the only thing that you can play?[/quote]
You can just as easily turn this around and ask:

Do you play a complex line because it's the best thing to play for what you are doing, or do you play it to show that you can?

Neither approach is the right one.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1292385' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:29 PM']I find it difficult to listen to a suggestion from a player who I have never heard play anything but simple crotchet/quaver basslines.For me,it's like
I've said in the past...Do you play a simple line because it's the best thing to play for what you are doing,or do you play it because it's the only
thing that you can play?[/quote]

Why does it matter what she *can* play? She's got a unique sound because of what she *does* play - it doesn't matter whether she's capable of anything else.

Do you know anybody who *can* play very technically and has ever played anything as simple as a Kim Deal line? No.

[BottomE]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1292412' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:49 PM']She's got a unique sound because of what she *does* play - it doesn't matter whether she's capable of anything else.[/quote]

If she is offering advice then it does matter.

[JellyKnees]

Never heard that Pixies song before, but god is it boring...tedious predictable indie rock IMHO

Got nothing against good simple bass lines though - I think she has a point about some bass players (and musicians in general) who can't/won't keep things simple. I find myself over elaborating sometimes, especially on songs we've been playing for a long time or played very frequently. That's why it's good to rest songs for a while and them come back to them fresh, and try and get back to the original basic idea that made it work in the first place.

Slap bass is like chilli sauce I guess, good in moderation on certain foods, but add too much and you'll completely ruin the dish.

[derrenleepoole]

Maybe this thread and the resulting discussion highlights that 'Kim' is in fact jealous of slap bass players

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1292412' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:49 PM']Why does it matter what she *can* play? She's got a unique sound because of what she *does* play - it doesn't matter whether she's capable of anything else.[/quote]
I don't hear anything unique in her playing.
What I'm saying is that simplicity isn't always a good thing if it's your only option-which from reading her article in Bass Player-
it pretty much is.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1292412' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:49 PM']Do you know anybody who *can* play very technically and has ever played anything as simple as a Kim Deal line? No.[/quote]

Yes..there are tons of players who can play very well technically and have played very simple basslines.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='BottomE' post='1292419' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:53 PM']If she is offering advice then it does matter.[/quote]

I disagree, but anyway she isn't offering advice, she's mocking us, that's different.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1292385' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:29 PM']I agree with this.
Also,I find it difficult to listen to a suggestion from a player who I have never heard play anything but simple crotchet/quaver basslines.For me,it's like
I've said in the past...Do you play a simple line because it's the best thing to play for what you are doing,or do you play it because it's the only
thing that you can play?[/quote]

Would you take a suggestion from someone, then, who's shipped hundreds of thousands of records?

Even acknowledging limitations, if one may suppose they exist, it's no mean feat; and hard to balance. Even if it is all that they can play, they've still achieved - right?

Found an interesting little vid, a good point at the end, which I'm guilty of - that's my "is this it?!" moment:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCPy_57z4_w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCPy_57z4_w[/url]

[derrenleepoole]

One word to sum up what's now being discussed - discipline. Irrespective of skill or ability, it's the one thing that matters in doing justice to the song/music etc.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1292431' date='Jul 4 2011, 05:01 PM']Would you take a suggestion from someone, then, who's shipped hundreds of thousands of records?

Even acknowledging limitations, if one may suppose they exist, it's no mean feat; and hard to balance. Even if it is all that they can play, they've still achieved - right?[/quote]

I've got no problem listening to anyone,but like I said there is a difference between playing simply because it's the best thing
to do,and playing simply because it's all you can do. In the case of Kim Deal,I get the impression that it's the latter option.
Record sales are not irrelevant in this regard.

[wombatboter]

I'm not jealous of bassplayers who are more "successful"l than I am, even though they have "poor" technique..
If someone can come up with a great simple bassline like "Walking on the Moon" I'm okay with that..who wouldn't ?
It bothers me a bit that bassplayers who are a bit more technical are blamed to fill up every gap..
I don't have problems with techniques like slap or fretless or tapping and I fill my days with getting better at it (I'm the best bassplayer in my livingroom) but when I'm asked to play "Fire" or "I will survive" I play exactly what is needed..
I don't feel the need to push an idea into an area where it doesn't belong...If they ask me to be creative or if my musical instinct tells me that the song needs a bit more, I'll be glad to try out something.
If a song works with just root notes I have no problem playing these..
The only time when I feel jealous is when a great bass-player plays this one incredible note in the right time and with the right feeling...Then I think : "I would never come up with this myself".
This is not a depressing jealousy, it's one which urges me to become "better" in what I do...
I try to find comfort in my own playing and I try to find new goals...

[Skol303]

I'm not a fan of slap bass-playing at all. In most cases, it actually irritates me for some deep, primeval reason.

But I'm strictly talking here about slap as a style of playing; I'm not irritated by slap bass players per se.

It's like break-dancing, for example... I find it all a bit tired and cheesy, but I do hold some respect to those who do it - because if I tried it myself, I'd end up looking like a total ass.

So props to those who can slap and pop. Just don't expect to be playing on my stereo...

[wombatboter]

Although I'm Belgian I seem to be one of the few people who has understood the question...
I doesn't say "Are you jealous of slappers ?" but "Are slappers envious of people with "lesser" skills who "made" it..?"
That's a big difference imo..

[retrohelix]

I'm not jealous of the 6 string slap bassists who have nailed all the techniques and use them to play 64th notes at 1000BPM. I'm constantly told that I should at least respect their "passion", but no. There is no reason I should respect the fact that some people have taken a lot of time out of their days to hone a technique on their instrument.

I am jealous of the people who have picked the right notes and played them at the right time, in a way that makes me tick. But as someone here already stated, it's the kind of jealousy that just makes me want to better myself.

Case in point, the song that made me pick up a bass to begin with.

[Anvil]

In my humble opinion [shot down in flames mode/on] I believe a bass should play thumping sounds that get you rockin' [shot down in flames mode /off]

Stands back and lights the blue touch paper...................







[smile]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1292426' date='Jul 4 2011, 04:58 PM']I don't hear anything unique in her playing.
What I'm saying is that simplicity isn't always a good thing if it's your only option-which from reading her article in Bass Player-
it pretty much is.



Yes..there are tons of players who can play very well technically and have played very simple basslines.[/quote]
I reckon she might have nicked that line from Stewart Copeland anyway. He said "i'll show you something no other drummer can do" ad proceeded to play Dum Da Dum Da etc. for a minute. BUT, he can play anything and has the musicality and compositional skills to know what is right and when.

It's also easy to be a 'melodic' bassist just by playing little scale lines under the chords, but it's pointless if you are not aware of why you are doing it and what the impact is on the song or section of the song. A much bigger challenge is to play bass for harmonic impact, where to put a note to accent a vocal line or even a single word, or a chord or passing chord. Then you get into timing, note pacing, space, simplicity, complexity, when to stick in that tritone, etc. Listen to Scott Thunes or James Jamerson and you might learn a tiny bit of that, listen to Kim Deal and you are doomed to mediocrity and guitarists telling you what to do.

Develop your musicality and your toolbox, work the song not your bass.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='wombatboter' post='1292468' date='Jul 4 2011, 05:31 PM']The only time when I feel jealous is when a great bass-player plays this one incredible note in the right time and with the right feeling...Then I think : "I would never come up with this myself".
This is not a depressing jealousy, it's one which urges me to become "better" in what I do...
I try to find comfort in my own playing and I try to find new goals...[/quote]
Pretty much sums it up for me. Although I'd substitute 'humbled' for 'jealous'. Pino's good at that.

I can't be doing with the whole 'jealousy' schtick tbh. If someone's successful then that's usually down to having been in the right place at the right time & meeting the right people - i.e. a bit of hard graft + a lot of pure luck. No point getting all green-eyed over it. Equally no point in thinking that (insert famous but mediocre player here) is somehow 'not worthy' of their success, 'cause they obviously are - 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong

Do what you do & damn the torpedoes. If commercial success comes out of that, all well & good. If it doesn't... so what? Are you enjoying what you do? If Yes, carry on; if No, change it until you are.

If you're playing because you have an overweening desire to be successful then you're probably doing this for all the wrong reasons.

On the subject of Slap... I didn't get it when it first broke out in the late '70 & early '80s and I still don't. I don't have a lot of time for shredders like Billy Sheehan either. Amazing player, but rarely does he move me.

P.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='silddx' post='1292512' date='Jul 4 2011, 06:17 PM']Develop your musicality and your toolbox, work the song not your bass.[/quote]

Well said N.

This thread reminds me of something someone once said about women "dressing up" for a night out.....they don't do it to attract men, they do it to show off to other women and ward them off. I wonder sometimes whether some bass players play to impress other bass players rather than thinking at any point about what the song. So, just like the overdressed "slapper" desperate to be noticed on a Saturday night, the overplaying slapper desperate to be noticed, overdresses their playing, hoping to impress........sadly for them, no one at most gigs gives a toss.

But what do I know, I'm an old slapper.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='wombatboter' post='1292489' date='Jul 4 2011, 05:54 PM']Although I'm Belgian I seem to be one of the few people who has understood the question...[/quote]

I know you're referring to the question being in English, but your post sounds like a very disparaging remark about Belgians.

And yes it seems that most people didn't read the first post.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='silddx' post='1292512' date='Jul 4 2011, 06:17 PM']It's also easy to be a 'melodic' bassist just by playing little scale lines under the chords, but it's pointless if you are not aware of why you are doing it and what the impact is on the song or section of the song. A much bigger challenge is to play bass for harmonic impact, where to put a note to accent a vocal line or even a single word, or a chord or passing chord. Then you get into timing, note pacing, space, simplicity, complexity, when to stick in that tritone, etc. Listen to Scott Thunes or James Jamerson and you might learn a tiny bit of that, listen to Kim Deal and you are doomed to mediocrity and guitarists telling you what to do.[/quote]

I know where you're coming from, and this wasn't really intended to be a discussion of Kim Deal specifically, but: I find what she does interesting because it's something I'd never do, and it works very well, and it gives the Pixies' sound an idiosyncratic angle.

I wasn't suggesting that everyone should play like Kim Deal, but I do think if you can't appreciate why she was important to the success of that band then you're maybe missing a trick.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='retrohelix' post='1292492' date='Jul 4 2011, 05:57 PM']There is no reason I should respect the fact that some people have taken a lot of time out of their days to hone a technique on their instrument.[/quote]

That surprises me. I always have respect for people that have a goal and work hard to achieve it (even if they don't achieve it, it's the effort that counts). Respect doesn't mean I have to like what it is they do though and fast slap falls under that category.

However people quickly lose my respect if they put in the work for the sake of showing off, being able to do some flashy playing is great in it's place but you do it to make yourself look good, then I can't be bothered.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1292549' date='Jul 4 2011, 06:49 PM']I know where you're coming from, and this wasn't really intended to be a discussion of Kim Deal specifically, but: I find what she does interesting because it's something I'd never do, and it works very well, and it gives the Pixies' sound an idiosyncratic angle.

I wasn't suggesting that everyone should play like Kim Deal, but I do think if you can't appreciate why she was important to the success of that band then you're maybe missing a trick.[/quote]
You're quite right

I've heard a tiny bit of Pixies and I found them a bit dull and seemed to be a band lauded more for their lyrics and attitude by the popular music press. That's fine, but I have different tastes.

As for jealousy, I am only jealous (to a small level) of musicians who had the determination and inspiration to pursue music relentlessly and who realised their potential early enough to develop their toolbox and musicality to such a degree that their expression on their chosen instrument has become tangible and almost effortless. I have a good level of musicality, but my toolbox is very limited due to the inertia of pragmatism, lack of confidence and general laziness. So I suppose I could be given to a little jealousy as a result of hindsight.

I have never been jealous of slap bassists, I find it unmusical in almost all its varieties.