Tuning / Detuning - confusing the **** out of me

[thunderbird13]

I received an urgent phone call from a band I know on Wednesday asking me if could help them out on a gig that they have next Saturday since their original bass player was on holiday. We agreed that I would only learn half the set and they would get another bassplayer to play the other half of the set ,I agreed since I knew most of the songs anyway . Had the first practice last night and it was a total disaster sine they insist on detuning to E flat. I didn’t think this would be a problem so I just detuned and played the songs in the “correct “ position but I was still half a step out on half of the songs. I then realised that in these songs the guitarist had detuned but had then shifted his fingers up one fret so effectively he was playing in standard tuning – does this make sense ?

Anyway I’m absolutely gutted since I put a lot of work into learning the songs , even took a day off work in order learn the 4 songs I wasn’t that familiar with - but the detuning/.shifting fret thing completely confused me and at the end of 2 hours I felt so useless that I couldn’t get out the door quick enough.

I doubt it I’ll get to play the gig now which is a bit annoying but not the end of the world BUT what I’d like to know is how would you guys handle it if say you learnt Sweet Child O’ Mine by ear along with the studio recording and then had to shift it up one fret playing live , Am I too inflexible as a bass player and relying too much on learning by muscle memory and what do I do about it ?

Cheers

[lanark]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1297028' date='Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM']I received an urgent phone call from a band I know on Wednesday asking me if could help them out on a gig that they have next Saturday since their original bass player was on holiday. We agreed that I would only learn half the set and they would get another bassplayer to play the other half of the set ,I agreed since I knew most of the songs anyway . Had the first practice last night and it was a total disaster sine they insist on detuning to E flat. I didn’t think this would be a problem so I just detuned and played the songs in the “correct “ position but I was still half a step out on half of the songs. I then realised that in these songs the guitarist had detuned but had then shifted his fingers up one fret so effectively he was playing in standard tuning – does this make sense ?

Anyway I’m absolutely gutted since I put a lot of work into learning the songs , even took a day off work in order learn the 4 songs I wasn’t that familiar with - but the detuning/.shifting fret thing completely confused me and at the end of 2 hours I felt so useless that I couldn’t get out the door quick enough.

I doubt it I’ll get to play the gig now which is a bit annoying but not the end of the world BUT what I’d like to know is how would you guys handle it if say you learnt Sweet Child O’ Mine by ear along with the studio recording and then had to shift it up one fret playing live , Am I too inflexible as a bass player and relying too much on learning by muscle memory and what do I do about it ?

Cheers[/quote]

I don't understand detuning. Why not just change where your fingers are playing?

[dc2009]

All the advice I've ever heard has said learn what notes are where.

That is what you should do, and it basically means (unless you're some kind of prodigy) that you learn them for a tuning and that's it. A sax player knows where his notes are and they don't change, same with every other instrument, and I don't think bass should be/is any different - if you learn where the notes are in whichever tuning you play in then that would be more than sufficient if you ask me.

[Truckstop]

I think the band were making things much more complicated than they had to be. Why detune a semi-tone, and then play a semi-tone up from that?
I'd be confused also. If I'd learnt Sweet Child O' Mine in Open E tuning I think I'd find it tricky to play it a fret up on the fly, I think anyone would!
But can I ask why you didnt just leave your bass in standard tuning if, in effect, that's what the guitarist was doing?

Truckstop

[aldude]

They should have known to tell you the keys beforehand!

Still, how about 2 basses? One tuned to E flat, one to standard? That way you can change basses depending on what key the guitard feels like playing in, and play everything in the fret positions you're used to. Not ideal swapping basses all the time but hey ho. You could try and persuade them to put the songs in an order so you have to change bass once or maybe twice. If you don't have a spare bass you might be able to borrow one. Like from the guy playing the 2nd set!

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1297047' date='Jul 8 2011, 12:25 PM']I think the band were making things much more complicated than they had to be. Why detune a semi-tone, and then play a semi-tone up from that?
I'd be confused also. If I'd learnt Sweet Child O' Mine in Open E tuning I think I'd find it tricky to play it a fret up on the fly, I think anyone would!
But can I ask why you didnt just leave your bass in standard tuning if, in effect, that's what the guitarist was doing?

Truckstop[/quote]

because half the time he was shifting his fingers up half a fret and other times he was playing in " correct " postion so he wasnt being consistent which made it double difficult to adapt !

[Al Heeley]

I'm used to having to play bass patterns up or down a couple of frets to suit different singers vocal limitations - without changing the tuning as this mucks up my bass action cosd of tension changes. It's good practice and a valuable skill to help you play in different bands. Sometimes on the hoof it hurts your brain a bit, but its a good pain.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

I feel your pain. In my last band, I too had to learn scom.
I tuned down to d flat as per original. Then guitarist s ask what am I playing??
Then one of guitarist says play in e . so then the song sounds pony.
I've got a 5 string. but some bands make things comPlicated for the sake of it.

Btw : isn't it annoying when other bandmembers suggest songs, not realising that they are tricky on bass??
If I suggest UFO doctor doctor, the guitarists say it's too hard ..... Aaargh

[Maverick]

Sorry to tell you this mate, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have been the one who was out. Sweet Child is in E flat tuning on record, so if you've learnt it by ear with your bass in standard tuning, and then down tuned and just played the same fret positions, you've gone a half step out. The guitarist was in fact playing it correctly I'd guess.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Maverick

[Ross]

Just tune up to standard and play like normal, if you don't need that extended range then why bother?
I don't like detuning either, throws me right off. Occasionally used drop d for more reggae influenced lines but for the most part don't bother.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Ross

[dmccombe7]

Rainbows Man on the silver Mountain played live by Bob Daisley is detuned to Eb and he plays a fret up so in effect playing whats on the album but it allows him more freedom to play open strings and more intricate fill ins. Obviously made it easier for him by look of it.

I'm learning songs as per album tracks and de-tuning for rehearsals and gigs because the singer can cope better with the vocal parts detuned.
I guess i could learn the songs in another key but this just seems easier all round.
Means my fingering stays the same.

Weird and first time I've had to detune and still trying to get my head round it.

Dave

[leezo666]

We used to do this in my old band because the singer found it easier to sing and play rhythm guitar if we were half a step down which was really annoying for me mainly because my tuner wasn't chromatic so I had to get as close as possible then guess the rest

[EssentialTension]

Rule 1: Tune your instrument how you want to tune it. Don't let other people dictate that to you.

Rule 2: Establish the key signature and play the song where you want to play it.

Rule 3: Rules 1 & 2 may be broken in special cases.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Maverick' post='1297262' date='Jul 8 2011, 02:51 PM']Sorry to tell you this mate, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have been the one who was out. Sweet Child is in E flat tuning on record, so if you've learnt it by ear with your bass in standard tuning, and then down tuned and just played the same fret positions, you've gone a half step out. [b]The guitarist was in fact playing it correctly[/b] I'd guess.[/quote]


Oi- your not allowed to say that - bass players have to stick together

Seriously I know that Slash would have detuned for the recording but if I'm working it out and the intro is D# to G# say, then surely it doesnt matter what the tunings are it should just be a case of finding the notes and playing it where we feel most comfortable . My point is that the guitarist has changed the key by detuning and then shifting one fret up the fretboard thus going back to standard tuning and therefore making me play G and A but they dont think they are changing the key

[Maverick]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1297346' date='Jul 8 2011, 03:45 PM']Oi- your not allowed to say that - bass players have to stick together

Seriously I know that Slash would have detuned for the recording but if I'm working it out and the intro is D# to G# say, then surely it doesnt matter what the tunings are it should just be a case of finding the notes and playing it where we feel most comfortable . My point is that the guitarist has changed the key by detuning and then shifting one fret up the fretboard thus going back to standard tuning and therefore making me play G and A but they dont think they are changing the key [/quote]

Okay, sorry, I may have misunderstood your original post. When you said:

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1297028' date='Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM']I didn’t think this would be a problem so I just detuned and played the songs in the “correct “ position but I was still half a step out on half of the songs.[/quote]

That suggested to me that you'd learned all the songs with your bass tuned to E, then just down-tuned to E flat for the rehearsal and just kept using the same fret positions, so effectively transposing the key of the song down a half step, maybe I've misread that.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Maverick

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Maverick' post='1297376' date='Jul 8 2011, 04:17 PM']Okay, sorry, I may have misunderstood your original post. When you said:



That suggested to me that you'd learned all the songs with your bass tuned to E, then just down-tuned to E flat for the rehearsal and just kept using the same fret positions, so effectively transposing the key of the song down a half step, maybe I've misread that.[/quote]

Ahh I see what your saying - I think I was wrong then

[xilddx]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1297047' date='Jul 8 2011, 12:25 PM']I think the band were making things much more complicated than they had to be. [b]Why detune a semi-tone, and then play a semi-tone up from that?[/b]I'd be confused also. If I'd learnt Sweet Child O' Mine in Open E tuning I think I'd find it tricky to play it a fret up on the fly, I think anyone would!
But can I ask why you didnt just leave your bass in standard tuning if, in effect, that's what the guitarist was doing?

Truckstop[/quote]
Tone.

[Maverick]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1297384' date='Jul 8 2011, 04:24 PM']Ahh I see what your saying - I think I was wrong then [/quote]

Okay, I think we're on the same page now. If you've learned it by ear, from the recorded version in E flat, on your bass tuned to E, then the song is in E flat and if you then downtune that bass a half step and keep the same fret positions it'll then be in D, which you probably didn't want. Whereas you do want to transpose songs in E down that half step to E flat, so learning them in E and keeping the same fret positions when you downtune is fine.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Maverick

[Prime_BASS]

Personally I learn the basic shape and patterns. And then simply move them up or down for detuneing.

Usually I only drop to D but have been known to play in Eb. However for example joceln browns somebody elses guy is tuned Eb but majority of the song is in Ab I think, regardless open strings arnt prominent so if I'm lazy I'll play it in standard tuning but play all the notes a fret lower.

The guitarist should have told you what key he is playing in. Some people detune or play in different keys for the vocalists sake, however I also feel that you should have picked up what was happening or at least stopped and asked. If someone is following me in a jam or what ever, I'll at least tell them what key I'm in, and if they are struggling I'd rather they stop and ask rather than sound crap and struggle.

Communication goes two ways.

[Danimal]

Unless I need use of the open strings in a particular key with no reasonable way around it, or unless I need to go lower than a B, I play everything in standard. I've been known to use drop D and drop A, but it's rare. Useful to be able to adapt to it though, should the situation arise!

[TimR]

Inflexible? No.

As Nigel has said the guitarists do it for tone and there is no need for you to do it unless you have to play an E[i]b[/i] on a 4-string.

The problem always arrises, as you have found when you detune, of what to call the notes/keys that you are actually playing.

I've run into problems when the Guitarists have down tuned a semitone but still call the first fret, on the E([i]b[/i]) string, F. So when they've charted it out you play the F that is written but they're all actually playng an E. They'll then complicate it further by saying they're playing it in E[i]b[/i] when thy're not but think they are due to their poor musical knowledge. It's best to downtune if the whole band have downtuned then you're all singing off the same song sheet.

There doesn't seem to be a standard. It would be easier it if they just said tune to A=420Hz (or whatever A[i]b[/i] is before some pedant shoots me ).

Edited July 8, 2011 by TimR

[thepurpleblob]

The key of the song is the key of the song and that's that - regardless of tuning. If a song is in Eb "on the record" then I would expect to learn it in that key unless the band have told me it is in some other key. After that, how I tune my bass to actually play the thing is completely up to me.

The problem comes when some idiot tells you the key they "finger" it in (if you see what I mean) but the "real" key is something else because they have tuned their instrument away from standard tuning. If that's what happened then it's them that's stupid, not you. They should tell you the actual key of the song - instrument tuning is mostly irrelevant, especially for a bass.

To recover from this, you really need to be able to transpose up or down "on the fly". This is a bit of a skill in itself. Sometimes you can get away with just moving everything up or down a fret but if you have open strings or run out of frets then you have to do some quick thinking. It's a skill worth having

[xgsjx]

Drop D is usually the only detune I use. I generally don't have a problem playing something that was in G but moved to A, but it's nice to have a little warning.

Another thing that can help is popping a capo on the 1st or 2nd fret. I know, what's the point of a capo on a bass. It's a mental thing. Your eyes see the capo as the nut & everything moves from there (or is that just if you play guitar as well?).

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

And now for another confusing slant on downtuning: when I learned SCOM , I
downloaded bass tab from the internet . So the tuning was : e flat , a flat, d flat g flat..
I then followed the tab the best I could, and it sounded 'right'.

So when we had next rehearsal, and I did what was instructed, why were the guitarists telling me I'm wrong?

Also, when the guitarists put their capos on I assume (pleeeze tell me if I'm wrong), that a 5 string is best for that and you just play the same
pattern of a song moving your hand ' up' onto the b string instead of the e . confused ?

[Doddy]

[quote name='TimR' post='1297656' date='Jul 8 2011, 08:48 PM']There doesn't seem to be a standard. It would be easier it if they just said tune to A=420Hz (or whatever A[i]b[/i] is before some pedant shoots me ).[/quote]

But really you are still tuning to A440......It's just that the A is now one fret higher-the frequency of the note hasn't
actually changed,only it's position.

The last few posts have mentioned my biggest gripe with altered tunings-If you drop tune,put a capo on or whatever,
the notes are not the same as they would be i standard tuning,but unfortunately a lot of guitar players (and bass
players) still refer to the notes as though they were in standard. This is mainly because a lot of them work on
chord shapes,so they class a G shape as a G chord no matter what the tuning.