Tuning / Detuning - confusing the **** out of me

[TimR]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1297702' date='Jul 8 2011, 09:39 PM']But really you are still tuning to A440......It's just that the A is now one fret higher-the frequency of the note hasn't
actually changed,only it's position.[/quote]

That's essentially my point.

[Higgie]

Whenever I've had to learn songs in alternate tunings, the band just say learn, say "Summer of 69" in the key of D, and THEN downtune to Eb for the gig. Easy as pie. Granted at short notice it's a bit of a bugger to transpose while playing, but if you get used to the patterns, once you find the root it's easy from there! Useful skill to have, IMO.

[Maverick]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1297552' date='Jul 8 2011, 07:21 PM']But the whole insisting on tunings is a load of crap. As long as you're playing the right notes at the right time who cares what the open tunings are.[/quote]

If a song uses open strings, particularly the bottom string (SCOM does), you pretty much have to match the original tuning if you want to play it accurately in that key. There are ways around it I suppose, but won't sound so good.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Maverick' post='1297762' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:41 PM']If a song uses open strings, particularly the bottom string (SCOM does), you pretty much have to match the original tuning if you want to play it accurately in that key. There are ways around it I suppose, but won't sound so good.[/quote]

I can think of one or two songs that would be hard to play without using open strings (technically I mean) but to say you HAVE to use open strings is a bit of stretch. It's a bit like saying you have to use a pick or you have to play a Fender

[Doddy]

[quote name='Maverick' post='1297762' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:41 PM']If a song uses open strings, particularly the bottom string (SCOM does), you pretty much have to match the original tuning if you want to play it accurately in that key. There are ways around it I suppose, but won't sound so good.[/quote]
As long as you're playing the right notes,it doesn't matter what you are tuned to.
If I'm playing a five string,like I do 90% of the time,should I still tune down a
semitone to match the recording? There's no point,I've got the notes under my
fingers anyway.

[xgsjx]

I pretty much agree with you there Doddy. The only times I've tuned to Eb Ab Db Gb has been when I was in a covers band & everyone else was (Never had a 5er).

[xgsjx]

Sorry Bode, being a bit of a guitarist I know that playing an A with the capo on the 2 (a G position) sounds different from playing an A in the normal non capo position. Same goes for many chords.
Also there's many songs that sound completely different played both with and without a capo.

RE: my other comment. I don't use a capo on my bass, but if someone is struggling to move everything up a fret or two, then it might be a good visual aide.

[bobbass4k]

[quote name='bode' post='1297813' date='Jul 8 2011, 11:11 PM']Any guitarists who need to use capos simply don't know enough chords. My old band tuned down to D because it sounded heavier. We learnt any covers by ear using D tuning and that was that, no capos, no moving up frets.[/quote]

That doesn't really work, if a riff or something uses an open string and lots of high frets in quick succsesion in the tuning it was recorded in, playing it properly in a different tuning is pretty difficult without a capo. I've even been known to use a capo on bass for that reason, my bass is in D standard/Drop C all the time now, most songs can just be transposed, but some just can't, and it's a pain in the arse to retune if I just want to play one song.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bode' post='1297813' date='Jul 8 2011, 11:11 PM']Any guitarists who need to use capos simply don't know enough chords. My old band tuned down to D because it sounded heavier. We learnt any covers by ear using D tuning and that was that, no capos, no moving up frets.[/quote]
Capos aren't only for guitarists who don't know their chords.

Just as some people tune down to D because it sounds heavier, some people will use a capo to make it sound crisper/janglier or whatever.

Also, slide players and others using open tunings will sometimes use a capo to give them different open strings without retuning.

[Maverick]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='1297788' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:55 PM']I can think of one or two songs that would be hard to play without using open strings (technically I mean) but to say you HAVE to use open strings is a bit of stretch. It's a bit like saying you have to use a pick or you have to play a Fender [/quote]

My point wasn't so much that you have to have open string[b]s[/b], rather you need that down tuned bottom note for certain songs. You can't play a low Eb on a bass tuned to E, for example, so how are you going to play the open string Eb notes in SCOM if you're tuned to E?

Unless...

[quote name='Doddy' post='1297790' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:56 PM']As long as you're playing the right notes,it doesn't matter what you are tuned to.
If I'm playing a five string,like I do 90% of the time,should I still tune down a
semitone to match the recording? There's no point,I've got the notes under my
fingers anyway.[/quote]

Yes, I was being a bit domain specific to 4 strings there, fair enough.

Also, I am a big metal fan, which is quite heavily reliant on using the open low string as a pedal note much of the time, so maybe I'm a bit over-concerned with that.

[peteb]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1297774' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:48 PM']And do you think a load of pissed up punters would notice the difference?[/quote]
Believe me, they will notice the difference if they've seen another band play it properly the week before!

[peteb]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1297790' date='Jul 8 2011, 10:56 PM']As long as you're playing the right notes,it doesn't matter what you are tuned to.
If I'm playing a five string,like I do 90% of the time,should I still tune down a
semitone to match the recording? There's no point,I've got the notes under my
fingers anyway.[/quote]
Sorry, but that is just wrong for a lot of riff based rock songs

Try playing for example 'Slither' by Velvet Revolver, a fast open string riff in drop D tuned down half a step on a 5 string in standard tuning and make it sound right? It just won't work.....

Edited July 9, 2011 by peteb

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='bode' post='1297882' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:49 AM']Who uses capos? I've never seen a heavy metal guitarist (OP's band) use one..only folk singer/ songwriters.[/quote]
Lots of advanced guitarists in lots of genres use capos; perhaps you just haven't seen them. And also very useful when layering guitars in the studio.

You haven't seen metal guitarists use them because for them it's either widdling, one fingered bottom string riffs or 5th "powerchords". No need for capos; they'd just get in the way.

Edited July 9, 2011 by skankdelvar

[xgsjx]

I'd rather pop a black capo on than play all the wrong chords.
With metal bands tho, it's usually power chords & riffs. Why would you need a capo to play E5, G5 & Bb5 (all my fave Nuclear Assault songs use those 3 chords).

Anyhoo, I wasn't saying his guitarists should use capos. I was suggesting he try one as a visual aide if the song is transposed up a semi or 2.

The bassist from Kings of Leon has used a capo live (ok, so they're pop rock). Why he did, I do not know. Maybe for the same reason?

[lojo]

The op spoke of the confusion caused due to learning in STD then being asked to detune, then there is issue as to how you communicate re keys

Id suggest your band state on the song list what the real key is and also what the fretted key is on a detuned instrument set to their suggested tuning

When I do a dep or short notice gig, I ask for definate confirmation of key for any songs don't feel I could play in any key on demand

De tune if you need to , but if you feel more comfortable in STD tuning then don't let them make you

[peteb]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1298099' date='Jul 9 2011, 11:36 AM']So a load of pissed up punters who usually can't remember how they got home are going to remember that the bassist used an open note and critique you whilst drunk because you fret the note instead

I play the intro riff to sweet child different from any version I know. Ironically I use open notes rather than staying around the 12th fret. In something like 8 years no one noticed. Not even the rest of the band.


Heck I listened to my mates bands demo and he plays lines that are nothing like the originals. Now either No one notices or no one cares. Because they are booked up something like a year in advance and play something like 3 times a week and nearly every night in the Works Christmas do period.[/quote]
So you play a very well known song completely wrong and you think that no one notices or cares??

You're having yourself on mate...........

[Doddy]

[quote name='peteb' post='1298134' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:10 PM']So you play a very well known song completely wrong and you think that no one notices or cares??

You're having yourself on mate...........[/quote]

Depends what you are calling completely wrong. Fretting notes instead of open strings and tuning up
differently? The only people who will pick up on that,maybe,are other bass players-and even then
as long as the notes are right it won't matter.

[lojo]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1298143' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:16 PM']Depends what you are calling completely wrong. Fretting notes instead of open strings and tuning up
differently? The only people who will pick up on that,maybe,are other bass players-and even then
as long as the notes are right it won't matter.[/quote]


I guess for the pub / party stuff I do that it seems 90% of people would not notice anything they simply hear a song they know and scream / dance etc, but there is always the arms folded blokes who notice alot even if they dont play themelves they know what things should sound like, these are the interesting people to chat to after, Im one when I watch a band

Reason I say the above is I've seen bands where the bass player plays only root notes only where you really need the rest to make the song work, but the crowd still dance as they know the song, or equally great bands with bad singers who achieve the same

Assuming this thread assumes we are talking about covering songs as close as possible to the recording, but that doesn't mean you have to fret it the same?

The poster who said "no one cares" is wrong, some people do care and will feel cheated if you do a bad job, just because people dance, doesn't mean you've played good music

Edited July 9, 2011 by lojo

[Doddy]

[quote name='lojo' post='1298149' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:24 PM']Reason I say the above is I've seen bands where the bass player plays only root notes only where you really need the rest to make the song work, but the crowd still dance as they know the song, or equally great bands with bad singers who achieve the same[/quote]
But there you are talking about playing a part differently....Who is going to notice if you are
fretting a low D on a five rather than drop tuning and playing an open string?

[lojo]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1298156' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:32 PM']But there you are talking about playing a part differently....Who is going to notice if you are
fretting a low D on a five rather than drop tuning and playing an open string?[/quote]

I agree with you, if its played well its played well regardless of where you fret it

Although the guns n roses example earlier in the thread takes this to far, thats changing the sound of the line completely, nothing wrong with that though if thats what you set out to do

Edited July 9, 2011 by lojo

[peteb]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1298156' date='Jul 9 2011, 12:32 PM']But there you are talking about playing a part differently....Who is going to notice if you are
fretting a low D on a five rather than drop tuning and playing an open string?[/quote]
I agree that no one should care if you play an open drop D note or fret it on the low string of a fiver. However, there are plenty of (mainly) rock tracks that require you to utilise an open string, such as Slither or, say Mr Brownstone (to keep the GnR comparison going!

[thepurpleblob]

Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead playing Sweet Child Of Mine, or anything by Guns n Roses for that matter. Bloody awful band (IMO, of course).

There's a lot more things you can screw up doing covers before the subtle nuances of open or fretted notes start to come into I think we'll find

[mcnach]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1297028' date='Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM']I received an urgent phone call from a band I know on Wednesday asking me if could help them out on a gig that they have next Saturday since their original bass player was on holiday. We agreed that I would only learn half the set and they would get another bassplayer to play the other half of the set ,I agreed since I knew most of the songs anyway . Had the first practice last night and it was a total disaster sine they insist on detuning to E flat. I didn’t think this would be a problem so I just detuned and played the songs in the “correct “ position but I was still half a step out on half of the songs. I then realised that in these songs the guitarist had detuned but had then shifted his fingers up one fret so effectively he was playing in standard tuning – does this make sense ?

Anyway I’m absolutely gutted since I put a lot of work into learning the songs , even took a day off work in order learn the 4 songs I wasn’t that familiar with - but the detuning/.shifting fret thing completely confused me and at the end of 2 hours I felt so useless that I couldn’t get out the door quick enough.

I doubt it I’ll get to play the gig now which is a bit annoying but not the end of the world BUT what I’d like to know is how would you guys handle it if say you learnt Sweet Child O’ Mine by ear along with the studio recording and then had to shift it up one fret playing live , Am I too inflexible as a bass player and relying too much on learning by muscle memory and what do I do about it ?

Cheers[/quote]


Just play what *you* have to play for the songs.
I have a D-tuner in most of my 4-string basses. Sometimes I detune but the guitarist(s) don't, and viceversa. I just worry about what I have to play, and do whatever I have to do to play it.
It makes sense in many cases for everybody to detune... but it's not a hard rule unless you are not merely shadowing the guitarist.

[mcnach]

[quote name='peteb' post='1297915' date='Jul 9 2011, 01:27 AM']Sorry, but that is just wrong for a lot of riff based rock songs

Try playing for example 'Slither' by Velvet Revolver, a fast open string riff in drop D tuned down half a step on a 5 string in standard tuning and make it sound right? It just won't work.....[/quote]


And that's why on a 5-string I still sometimes detune the E string.

It's not about the existence of particular notes on the fretboard, it's about fingering too and what allows you to play certain things in certain ways, or easier.

[Higgie]

+1 to that. Certain songs like Slither or Hysteria by Muse will utilise open strings to sound it's best, and even when using the 5 I will downtune my E string for Slither. If it's a song where I just need the range, I will stay in whatever tuning and go from there, if it's something riff based which needs the open string like Slither, I will downtune to make it easier. All depends on the song IMO.