Who is endorsing who?

[LLOYDWT]

On this forum along with many others I occasionally lurk on, I see people proudly displaying their endorsement deals in the signatures of their posts. I’m curious how some of you perceive your/others endorsement deals based on the wording of their signatures and discussions regarding gear/endorsements;

[i]“Endorsed by...”
“Proud [product] endorsee”[/i]

It is my understanding that an [i]Endorser[/i] is the person/people giving an endorsement and the [i]Endorsee[/i] is the person/people receiving it. So by this definition, is it the perception of those who make claims similar to the above that they feel they are the ones being endorsed by the manufacturers (“We [i]Company X[/i] feel compelled to endorse the abilities of [i]Musician Y[/i]”) or is there simply confusion over which role belongs to whom regarding endorsement deals?

When [i]Company X[/i] gives[i] Rockstar A[/i] free or discounted gear the obvious benefit for the company is the visibility that [i]Rockstar A[/i] can give to their product and the potential for increased sales of products to those who idolise/want to emulate Rockstar A. The benefits to the company are apparent, however the benefits to the artist are negligible. I remember in Flea’s [i]Adventures in Spontaneous Jamming & Techniques[/i] DVD with River Phoenix he talked about the irony that the only musicians that got free stuff were those whose financial means allowed them to buy whatever they wanted anyway. The power in this dynamic is with the musician - Eddie Van Halen could use any guitar he wants but he’s chosen to use Charvel, Kramer, Peavey, EBMM, Fender etc, and his endorsement of their products adds value to their brand.

[i]“Eddie Van Halen proudly endorses Fender guitars and EVH 5150 amplifiers”
“[Rockstar A] proud [product] endorser”
“Gibson guitars are endorsed by...” [/i]

When [i]Company X[/i] gives [i]Session Guy A[/i] free/discounted gear, the benefits are not as obvious as with [i]Rockstar A[/i]. Could it be argued that an endorsement deal could benefit [i]Session Guy A[/i] in ways in addition to free/discounted gear? Does an endorsement deal carry sufficient kudos to raise the profile of a lower profile musician sufficiently to justify their perception of themselves as an endorsee rather than an endorser?

Who holds the power, the manufacturers or the musicians? Is it financially viable to endorse lower profile artists? And are you guys and girls endorsers or endorsees?

Discuss.

[Stylon Pilson]

I see it as the artist endorsing the equipment.

My problem with endorsement deals is that it makes me uncertain as to peoples motives. Say someone starts a thread asking "what are the best instrument cables?" On this forum, at least, you'll get a lot of people saying "Use obbm." And because I know that obbm isn't paying those people, I can be confident that the positive reviews are genuine. However, then you'll get one guy who says "Use Spectraflex" and in his signature it says "Endorsed by/endorses Spectraflex." Now, it may be that this guy genuinely likes Spectraflex cables. But then it's also possible that his contract says "You must be vocal in your support of The Company and take every available opportunity to tout The Product." I can't be sure whether he is promoting the cables because they are genuinely the best, or because it's financially beneficial for him to do so.

S.P.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='1300800' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:32 AM']My problem with endorsement deals is that it makes me uncertain as to peoples motives. Say someone starts a thread asking "what are the best instrument cables?" On this forum, at least, you'll get a lot of people saying "Use obbm." And because I know that obbm isn't paying those people, I can be confident that the positive reviews are genuine. However, then you'll get one guy who says "Use Spectraflex" and in his signature it says "Endorsed by/endorses Spectraflex." Now, it may be that this guy genuinely likes Spectraflex cables. But then it's also possible that his contract says "You must be vocal in your support of The Company and take every available opportunity to tout The Product." I can't be sure whether he is promoting the cables because they are genuinely the best, or because it's financially beneficial for him to do so.[/quote]

As this is obviously aimed at me,I'd better answer.
While I do have a deal with Spectraflex cables,I was using their leads for about 3 previous to that,and was offered the endorsement deal out of the blue after I placed an order for a couple of new leads because the UK distributor had not got any in stock. I'm not told to promote them at every opportunity-I genuinely prefer them to any other lead that I've used. If I didn't like them I wouldn't use them.

[Fat Rich]

I don't know if it's the same in the bass world but Mapex suddenly seemed to give anyone who could prove they were an established drum teacher a load of free gear, and sure enough most of their students went out and bought Mapex kits soon after (I'm not knocking Mapex gear as it seems pretty good by the way). So the endorsee benefits from free gear and the endorser sells lots more drum kits.

If it's the same in the bass world a lot of the endorsees might be teachers rather than high profile performers, they then can recommend the gear they've been given to their students. I'm always wary of any teacher who recommends a specific brand because it might be more about what deal they've done for themselves. I choose my gear on merit and whether it works for me.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Fat Rich

[geoffbassist]

Its more often than not an 'artist deal' where the manufacturer is selling direct to the player at about trade price. They still get paid the same for their gear as it's the retailers fee that's left of the price the player pays.
Im guessing not many people get an endorsement in the old fashioned meaning of 'free gear for publicity'. I don't know though and would be interested in hearing from people with these deals.

[Krysbass]

I'd have thought it's always a case of the player endorsing the product - not the other way round.

But you don't need to read too many interviews in Bass Guitar Magazine to see how many players (some of 'em quite well known) who'll say "I'm endorsed by.........." Not too sure whether that's deliberate or a genuine error?

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1300879' date='Jul 12 2011, 12:30 PM']As this is obviously aimed at me,I'd better answer.
While I do have a deal with Spectraflex cables,I was using their leads for about 3 previous to that,and was offered the endorsement deal out of the blue after I placed an order for a couple of new leads because the UK distributor had not got any in stock. I'm not told to promote them at every opportunity-I genuinely prefer them to any other lead that I've used. If I didn't like them I wouldn't use them.[/quote]

Of course you'd say that, it's in the contract!

/conspiracy theory

Don't worry, Doddy, I'm just f***ing with you

[Machines]

Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.

[dc2009]

When I see some company's list of artists or endorsees, it's frequently populated by names I've never heard of, with a few I have. Now I'm by no means the most musically cultured or knowledgeable chap here. But I am surprised how many people get endorsements. If I was running the company, my bottom line would be, will the amount this endorsement is costing me be at the very least reimbursed by subsequent sales as a direct result. I have to say that I think much of the time this would be no, for a few reasons:
• The majority of live music venues suck to the point where the bass is a rumble, and even if the sound is fairly good, I'd say it's rare you'd be able to really nail down the bass tone to the point where you wanted to buy or even try what the bassist is using - particularly if it is the amp or pedals or anything other than the bass, which are occasionally/usually hidden from display.
• Say you like the bass work in the studio. I know many of us are gear nerds, but virtually no player publishes their exact set up they use for a recording anywhere for the public to find, and there is always the question of what the engineer/producer has done to the sound after the bass, pedals, amps etc have all done their work.
I think these reasons mean that sales as a result of artist endorsements aren't that high, and that more often than not the artist (excluding the mega-rockstars) is getting a pretty good deal out of getting cheaper/free gear.

[dc2009]

[quote name='Machines' post='1300966' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:22 PM']Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.[/quote]

One of the many reasons I decided to stop renewing my subscription a couple of years back.

[Dood]

[quote name='geoffbassist' post='1300949' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:08 PM']Its more often than not an 'artist deal' where the manufacturer is selling direct to the player at about trade price. They still get paid the same for their gear as it's the retailers fee that's left of the price the player pays.
Im guessing not many people get an endorsement in the old fashioned meaning of 'free gear for publicity'. I don't know though and would be interested in hearing from people with these deals.[/quote]


Sorting the wheat from the chaff, you've made the distinction. There are big differences in deals and *some* companies.. or rather, too many are offering a glorified trade deal, where that's as far as it goes. Which is all fine and dandy for most people, but I'm pretty sure that if you were to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere on tour and you called upon them for help, they'd probably chuckle and ask how deep your pockets are.

I'm fortunate in that I had been using all of the products loooooong before any contact from the companies themselves, tried and tested. (as many of you will no doubt know I was blathering on about my gear back in the days of Bassworld!!) I am very pleased and chuffed to bits to say that pretty much all of them contacted me to offer me on to their roster in support of my music career. That's not BS either, i know that I can talk to say, Jason How or Larry Hartke anytime I need to and they are there for me - and in return I get to tell everyone what I honestly think of the brands - which thankfully for them is positive, else, I wouldn't use 'em heh heh!!! - and boy have I owned a lot of kit over the years.

So, in short there are different deals out in the wild and some to be wary of - but companies aren't stupid, they're not going to give 'free stuff' away out of the kindness of their hearts - we're all in business - and theirs, bottom line, like it or not is to make money. Then again... so is mine.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300967' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:23 PM']When I see some company's list of artists or endorsees, it's frequently populated by names I've never heard of, with a few I have.[/quote]
Warwick, ffs. I mean:

'Sneezy' Kleinmann - Schneeweis / Sieben Kleine Manner

Bodo Notwendig - Lederhosen Krisis

Luigi Pepperoni - Salsiccia

Putzi Hanfstaengl - Berlin Backroom Boys

Donatella Panatella - The Girl With The Big Ear-rings

Non-entities, all of them.

[Machines]

Yeah, the Warwick adverts in BGM are the same too, full of people I have never heard of. Does this make me want to buy a Warwick ?!

To be honest, I find any endorsing advertising off putting, i'd rather just some nice pics of the gear and some details of why the manufacturers think it's good.

The worst endorsing adverts i've ever seen are Vintage, terrible on so many levels ! [url="http://www.jhs.co.uk/Press%20Releases/stevedawson.html"]Link here[/url]

[i]"Buy one. Borrow one. Steal one. Just get one. The V4 Bass is AWESOME!!"[/i]

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Machines' post='1301237' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:22 PM'][i]"Buy one. Borrow one. Steal one. Just get one. The V4 Bass is AWESOME!!"[/i] [/quote]
You [i]want [/i]John McCoy to come round and sit on you?

Edited July 12, 2011 by skankdelvar

[dc2009]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1301220' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:09 PM']Warwick, ffs. I mean:

'Sneezy' Kleinmann - Schneeweis / Sieben Kleine Manner

Bodo Notwendig - Lederhosen Krisis

Luigi Pepperoni - Salsiccia

Putzi Hanfstaengl - Berlin Backroom Boys

Donatella Panatella - The Girl With The Big Ear-rings

Non-entities, all of them.[/quote]

I think between Luigi Pepperoni, The Berlin Backdoor Boys and the Girl with the Big 'ear-rings' warwick could make quite the adult film...

[Machines]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1301245' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:29 PM']You [i]want [/i]John McCoy to come round and sit on you?[/quote]
Ah yes, he was another one who had a cringeworthy advert.

[i]"My Vintage ICON bass is f***ing incredible. It feels so natural, like I've been playing it for years!"[/i]

[markstuk]

But everything in BGM is nearly as fabulous as everything else :-) It's even worse than reading SOS..

[quote name='Machines' post='1300966' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:22 PM']Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.[/quote]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Machines' post='1300966' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:22 PM']Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.[/quote]

Who at BGM is endorsed? Hasn't Stu Clayton just got an endorsement from Zon.. and maybe TC? Not sure about any of the others?

[Lfalex v1.1]

I wouldn't accept an endorsement from anyone except DR strings.

i) No-one is going to tell me what gear I can and can't use for the next [i]X[/i] years. If I want to play
ii) They are the one of the few products I've encountered that I really have faith in. Never had a duff string etc. And they make a good range of products for a variety of uses. Good as some of my basses are, none are perfect all-rounders..

Endorsements of products by artists doesn't influence my gear choices. That's down to product performance.

"Signature" items (primarily basses) are a different proposition, however, and seem to force people into four groups;

"I want one- I Love artist so-and-so" fanboys/girls

"I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole because so-and-so plays it" detractors

"It's a necessary evil- I'm in a xxxxxxxx tribute band, and we need to look and sound like them"

"That's actually a well-thought-out instrument with some useful plusses IMO, and I don't care about the associations"

There are some good signature instruments out there, the development of which has been influenced by the player in question, to positive effect. I'd include-

Fender Roscoe Beck
Fender Urge
Ibanez Gary Willis Fretless
Fender Marcus Miller Jazz
Yamaha Attitude
Modulus Flea Bass
[u]Status[/u] Buzzard
Dingwall Leland Sklar

These are just examples, but they offer a different take on what may be a familliar instrument. There are loads of others, but I'd not include

Fender Geddy Lee Jazz
Fender Steve Harris Precision
Chris Squire Rickenbacker

Sure, they're [i]nice[/i] basses, but not different enough from their parent instrument to be worth buying one because X endorses it alone. Sure, if it's a good bass and you like it, then that's fine, but the endorsement doesn't really add anything.

[Machines]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1301286' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:51 PM']Who at BGM is endorsed? Hasn't Stu Clayton just got an endorsement from Zon.. and maybe TC? Not sure about any of the others?[/quote]
I never said who it was .

But to answer your question specifically [url="http://www.bassguitarmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=272:stuart-clayton&catid=42%3a%6fur-writers"]have a look here[/url]. I assume the info is still current.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Machines' post='1301300' date='Jul 12 2011, 05:01 PM']I never said who it was .[/quote]

I know you didn't - no needed. I did because he is the only person I know of that both reviews and holds any endorsements.

There is a significant difference in terminology though... one that endorses, or one that is endorsed. Two different things. GB hasn't endorsed Stuart... If Stuart wants to recommend GB, then he endorses GB. He isn't paid to use GB - Bernie couldn't afford it anyway. Using that logic, I also endorse GB.

Furthermore, with regard to that particular review, it was not without negative comment.

The thing is, the two main reviewers at the time of that review being published, Stu and Mike, both play GB basses. They both have more than 1 GB (Stu 2 and Mike 3 I believe). Both have a nice selection of non GB basses. They have played loads of basses and have chosen to buy GB. Kinda speaks more volume than any review.

Anyway, it's a bit of a ridiculous statement for you to make... loads of people own Fenders... does that mean nobody can review a Fender?

Edited July 12, 2011 by EBS_freak

[Machines]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1301317' date='Jul 12 2011, 05:14 PM']Anyway, it's a bit of a ridiculous statement for you to make... loads of people own Fenders... does that mean nobody can review a Fender?[/quote]

It may not use the 'e' word but surely that's what it is irrelevant of any financial benefit to either party ? How many Fender users are on the Fender website ? [url="http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/gb_demos.asp"]http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/gb_demos.asp[/url]

My point, is that the review is not what I consider impartial, I don't believe for one minute that Stuart pays full price for the instruments compared to if me or you ordered the same spec.

[Mikeg]

Stu endorses Zon and tc, it says it on the back of the book of his i have that was publsished like 3 months ago

[Jase]

[quote name='Machines' post='1300966' date='Jul 12 2011, 01:22 PM']Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.[/quote]


BMM did it recently with Rotosound, an endorsing artist gave a "review" of the strings...well sort of review, more a factory tour.
I also think lower profile players [u]do[/u] use it as some sort of fame booster ( I should know, I've done it in the past) Even funnier when I realised I was blabbing about an "Artist Deal" or "Trade Account" I changed my policy after that....I don't endorse anything! Nothing wrong with getting cost gear but what's the point in promoting it? It's like a local Plumber or Builder shouting about the fact he has a trade account with B&Q or Travis Perkins!

While I'm at it.....how many endorsing artists here are actually on the artist page/list on any of the Product sites they endorse? Can't be that many. I believe the Company to be holding the power and not the Artist.

[pantherairsoft]

The way I see it - I endorse Roscoe. I do this as I use them and genuinely think they are the most stunning basses around. So much so that I have bought two of them and sold most of my collection. I am happy to fly the Roscoe flag with or without thier recognition.

In return for me endorsing the brand they acknowledge my dedication to the brand and promote me, along with other endorsee's (wait for the updated website - coming soon - I'm there!) which gives me and projects I'm involved in some extra exposure, as well as a sense of pride & achievement. For Roscoe to consider me an 'endorsee', I take that as them respecting me as a musician and supporter of Keith's brand.

I'm not a 'pro' player & I don't get given free instruments, nor do I (currently) have need for tour support - if/when that time comes maybe I'll feel differently about what I get from and give to the endorsement of a brand.