Lack of Talent.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1302657' date='Jul 13 2011, 06:07 PM']Personally I don't think you should pactice things at all... but you should have your chops up to a level that it all flows.

For that you will need a [b]PRACTICE[/b] regime.[/quote]
Sorted

[EdwardHimself]

I think anyone can become an extremely good bass player with the right quantity and quality of practice, but only if they really want to do it. You've got to be interested in it really. Good as Jaco? Maybe not but certainly a good player nonetheless.

[Bilbo]

I think a lot of it depends on a lot of things. There is the nature/nurture debate; how much of what we become is innate and how much is the result of the developmental processes we are subjected to. There are many great, great players who grew up as the children of musicians and willo have benefitted from 'on-tap' advice and guidance from day one. How can they NOT be better quicker than those of us who took up an instrument as an adult. Kids can play all day, practicing, jamming, listening to music, watching dvds, looking at t'internet, whereas adults who have to pay rent, do their own laudry and cooking etc have less time to commit i.e. the earlier you start, the more of the 10,000 hours is wuality practice time) There are those whose parents support their kids development by providing good instruments, consistent tuition, supportive environments (good practice space and encouragement as opposed to 'shut the f*** up, I;m watching tv'). Some can't afford to provide that kind of support. People who grow up near a 'scene' are going to have a better chance than those who grow up in the sticks - more people to say it can happen that it can't. Some kids will become great musicians because they want to AND their parents want them to. Some will not because their parents want them to but they don't. The individual factors are moot but the point is that there are lots of factors that can impact on the development of an individual. And all of this is before you add in the ability of an individual to absorb information e'g' dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, ADHD, IQ, sense of humour, ability to listen, work ethic - the 1m and 1 things that come together to make us, well, us. I accept that there may be such a thing as talent but, in the overall scheme of things, I reckon there is more we can do to give someone a better crack at it than we may think.

I can't help but look at the number of great musicians who are the children of great musicians. The concept of talent carries with it an implication that there is some spooky 'mojo' force that some folk have and others don't. I think there is more truth in the impact of the environmental than the supernatural.

[bobpalt]

I only picked up a bass for the first time when I was 47, so perhaps when I reach 97 I might have got the hang of it? Thank god, something to look forward to other than my bus pass.

Bob

[Gust0o]

Which aspect of Jaco's performance are you focusing your efforts on? His bass playing or his substance abuse?

Both work, except in union.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1303417' date='Jul 14 2011, 12:23 PM']The concept of talent carries with it an implication that there is some spooky 'mojo' force that some folk have and others don't. I think there is more truth in the impact of the environmental than the supernatural.[/quote]

I'm with Bilbo on this one. And it also makes me think of the old adage: "99% perspiration, 1% parents credit card", or whatever

Talent and natural aptitude surely play a part: the tall, gangly kid at school is going to make a more 'natural' long distance runner than his short, chunky friend, for instance. Or perhaps someone who is tone deaf and has no natural sense of rhythm is likely to struggle more when learning an instrument [tempted to make a drummer joke here, but I'll let it pass...].

BUT... I'd argue that talent, however you define it, is always overshadowed by the dull servitude of practice, practice and more practice. It's simple really: the more you repeat an activity, the more efficient and confident you become at doing it. That applies to playing bass as much as it does to flying an aeroplane. And personally, when I take a flight I want the pilot to be practiced and not talented.

So in answer to the OP: yes, I reckon that sufficient practice can compensate for a "lack of talent", because talent itself is more a product of environment and opportunity than any kind of unattainable, mystical mojo, as others have mentioned.

[JTUK]

Don't agree that talent is defined as "product of environment and opportunity" at all.

That is not talent, that is circumstance. Not saying it isn't helpful or even critical but not in itself, talent.

[Pete Academy]

I was still at High School when I started playing. My parents didn't have the funds to buy me anything special, but they showed incredible patience when I got home from school, absolutely desperate to play my bass, as the whole house shook while they were trying to watch telly in the next room.

[bremen]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1303537' date='Jul 14 2011, 02:03 PM']I'm with Bilbo on this one. And it also makes me think of the old adage: "99% perspiration, 1% parents credit card", or whatever [/quote]

According to Joe Orton, the adage is "1% inspiration, 99% masturbation"

[oldslapper]

There is the old story of Robert Johnson, who legend has it that he was so brilliant because he sold his soul to the devil on exchange for talent.
One of his peers was asked whether this was true, and the guy said "I don't know about that, but this I do know....he practices a lot".
Hendrix, had his guitar with him all the time from a kid, his father wasn't that encouraging, but he practiced all the time.
And before it all starts, I don't care what anyone thinks of Hendrix, it's just a point I'm making.

Some people have the talent for practicing........it's an undervalued talent, but the most important in my opinion.

[Pete Academy]

Get those 10,000 hours in.

[Bilbo]

When Steve Morse worked as an airline pilot, he used to drive 100 miles to work along a straight desert road. He told Guitar Player that he took his guitar on the journey to work with him and practised whilst he was driving, controliing the vehcile with his knees. THAT is practising!!

[4 Strings]

You can certainly get good at practicing.

How good you are on the bass is an unquantifiable thing about expression and, as has been already said, communication (goodness, Booker T's keyboard lines are simple enough). But if your technique means you can't play some of the things you want to express then you need to practice them. The likes of Hendrix and Jaco had practiced their technique and theory so that they could express what they wanted.

I have nothing like either when compared to someone like Jaco, but I see bassists in the pubs whose technique I can see is more limiting than mine but they play enviably well as they know what to play.

There's not too much that's taxing in Jamerson's playing, but boy did he know what to play and how to play it. Try as I may, I'll never play like him either.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1303616' date='Jul 14 2011, 03:08 PM']There is the old story of Robert Johnson, who legend has it that he was so brilliant because he sold his soul to the devil on exchange for talent.
One of his peers was asked whether this was true, and the guy said "I don't know about that, but this I do know....he practices a lot".[/quote]
A bit like that old Arnold Palmer quote (I think) about golf being a game of luck - and the more he practiced the luckier he got.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1303620' date='Jul 14 2011, 03:15 PM']Get those 10,000 hours in. [/quote]

Only about 14 years if you practice for 2 hours every single day . . . .

[Ross]

I practise 2-3 hours a week tops and I can keep up with the best. (not to blow my own horn)
Don't think I've ever had natural talent for anything, I just pick things up easily.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1303648' date='Jul 14 2011, 03:42 PM']Only about 14 years if you practice for 2 hours every single day . . . .[/quote]


I can easily waste 2 hours a day doing nothing in particular, I am by nature a lazy git.
Be interesting to log how much time is spent ogling gear, for sale sections, eBay, discussions about bass players and their dubious taches, etc. Watching utter drivel on tv......all adds up.
Anyway I've got to go iron my sofa.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Ross' post='1303670' date='Jul 14 2011, 04:02 PM'](not to blow my own horn)[/quote]
that's quite a talent mate

[JellyKnees]

Up to a point. I can think of a couple of drummers I've played in the past with who had obviously practiced loads, had some lessons, brought a great kit etc...but they never really [i]grooved[/i].

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Ross' post='1303670' date='Jul 14 2011, 04:02 PM']I practise 2-3 hours a week tops and I can keep up with the best. (not to blow my own horn)
Don't think I've ever had natural talent for anything, I just pick things up easily.[/quote]

Unfortunately we don't actually know whether you're actually any good or not apart from what you have said so it's not really saying much. Everyone seems to think i'm quite good. I think i'm crap but then again i never practice. I think if i did actually put some work in i could be as good at the bass, guitar and drums as my sister is on the piano and violin and singing.

Edited July 14, 2011 by EdwardHimself

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1303623' date='Jul 14 2011, 03:22 PM']When Steve Morse worked as an airline pilot, he used to drive 100 miles to work along a straight desert road. He told Guitar Player that he took his guitar on the journey to work with him and practised whilst he was driving, controliing the vehcile with his knees. THAT is practising!![/quote]

This is why one should never get on a plane being piloted by Steve Morse.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Ross' post='1303670' date='Jul 14 2011, 04:02 PM']I practise 2-3 hours a week tops and I can keep up with the best. (not to blow my own horn)[/quote]

I thought I was awesome at 20 too
.....I suppose it also depends on what you think of as 'the best'.

On a more general note,a big part of practicing is not the pure number of hours but the
material that you study. Playing along to your favourite Chili Peppers for a couple of hours is great
fun but it's not practicing. The idea is to practice something that you have never played or can't already
do....that is how you improve. An hour studying an 8 bar exercise out of 'Chord Studies' will see a bigger
improvement than 3 hours jamming to 'Californication' for the 6th time.
Don't get me wrong,playing to your favourite albums is fun and important but after a short while it
stops becoming practice and you need to look elsewhere for improvement.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1303647' date='Jul 14 2011, 03:41 PM']A bit like that old Arnold Palmer quote (I think) about golf being a game of luck - and the more he practiced the luckier he got.[/quote]


Gary Player, I believe.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1303781' date='Jul 14 2011, 05:10 PM']I thought I was awesome at 20 too
.....I suppose it also depends on what you think of as 'the best'.

JACO BERLIN of course.

On a more general note,a big part of practicing is not the pure number of hours but the
material that you study. Playing along to your favourite Chili Peppers for a couple of hours is great
fun but it's not practicing. The idea is to practice something that you have never played or can't already
do....that is how you improve. An hour studying an 8 bar exercise out of 'Chord Studies' will see a bigger
improvement than 3 hours jamming to 'Californication' for the 6th time.
Don't get me wrong,playing to your favourite albums is fun and important but after a short while it
stops becoming practice and you need to look elsewhere for improvement.[/quote]

Wise words Mr. D

[Skol303]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1303559' date='Jul 14 2011, 02:21 PM']Don't agree that talent is defined as "product of environment and opportunity" at all.

That is not talent, that is circumstance. Not saying it isn't helpful or even critical but not in itself, talent.[/quote]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you define talent as being "a natural ability to be good at something, especially without being taught" - then what I'm suggesting is that the "without being taught" bit might include, for example, being exposed to music or musicianship from an early age.

That is: not being taught per se, but acquiring talent through being influenced by your surroundings or environment - through 'osmosis', if you like (yes, I perhaps do have a talent for bull****!)

In other words: I'm not sure talent is something you can only be born with; I believe you can pick up a talent for something through experiences (or nurture) too.