I can't seem to learn to read music......Help!!

[Jazzneck]

I'm over 60 and although I've tried to learn to read music many, many times over the years I just can't seem to do it.
I not that thick as I have been able to pick up some technical, scientific and academic qualifications during my life but when it comes to reading music I seem to be super dislexic (no offence meant).

I got seriously piddled off today as the missus was practising piano and getting on famously by reading the dots and she's only been at it (music, that is) for two months at the rate of one 1hr lesson per week!!!!

I've been playing on and off since 1962 and am now with 2 bands and I'm sure I would be able to do and contribute more if I could read.

Any serious suggestions on how I could learn or shall I just carry on winging it based on rhythm and ears?

[Blademan_98]

I have started learning the dots too.

(I'm 45)

I find it easier to go over small passages at a time.

I bought a few musical scores and just read them quietly to myself.

Take it slowly and it will come

[JoshL]

If its any consolation, I'm having the same trouble and I'm only 17. All I can say is to do as above, just take it slowly, figure out 1 passage or phrase at a time and then gradually build it up as you get more confident.

[Lozz196]

You could try and put some version of tab onto sheet music, like a customised version that will assist.

For example, when transcribing a piece, if the first note is an F on the E string, and the second note is a G on the E string - on a new sheet of blank music paper, put E1 and E3 where the notes were on the original.

I did this with an Excel spreadsheet when I was teaching someone to play bass, put a stave at the top, with the notes as they traditionally appear, then on a stave underneath, put the notes again, but with the E1, E3 nest to them. It may be slightly unorthodox, but it may work for you.

Progressing, when you learn a small passage, copy the sheet music notes onto your Excel stave, writing the E1 etc next to the notes.

[xgsjx]

Use this (I nicked it from the Bassclef YTS thread) if you need help knowing the names of the notes on the fretboard...

[url="http://www.studybass.com/tools/bass-clef-notes/"]http://www.studybass.com/tools/bass-clef-notes/[/url]

As for score, the spaces between the lines from bottom to top is ACE G (that's me that is ). After that, it's practice.

[Doddy]

A good starting point is to learn where the open strings are on the stave. Straight away you've got at least four notes and
you can use those as reference points. Even if you are counting up and down to begin with,it will get easier quicker than
you realise.
I'm assuming you are pretty solid with the notes on the fingerboard...if you're not,you need to be.

[DirkThrust]

Have you tried Simplified Sight Reading for Bass by Josquin des Pres published by Hal Leonard. It breaks the process down into easy exercises.

It may be just a matter of finding the right learning tools

[skej21]

I've always found that NOT playing the same thing for too long is good. It doesn't take long before the "memory" skills you've been using for learning music kick in and you stop reading the dots.

Try having lots of different bits of music to look at. Play through one until you make a mistake/stutter/stop playing, then flick away from those dots onto something new.

If you have enough material to flick between so you don't repeat what you're reading too often, you'll pick it up in no time

[4 candles]

you have to ask yorself why you need to read as you aproach the 70 yr old mark!

The only reason you need to read is to open some more doors as a musician and make yourself available to many more gigs as a working musician. (unless you have apoint or grudge too prove to someone)

If you feel the need to reed then best of luck to you. Me personally at your age would enjoy some golf or fishing out in the glorious sunshine.

regards

Mark

[Doddy]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1303981' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:01 PM']The only reason you need to read is to open some more doors as a musician and make yourself available to many more gigs as a working musician. (unless you have apoint or grudge too prove to someone)[/quote]
That's not the only reason.......maybe he just wants to? Maybe there are some books that he wants to read from? Maybe he
just wants to understand music a bit more?
It's not just about getting gigs.

[BottomE]

All power to you. Just keep at it. The note trainer is ok for learning notes on the stave. I think in a way you are probably held back by already having a fair musical palette to play with. It can seem tedious working out notes on a sheet of music when you know you can do it by ear more quickly.

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1303981' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:01 PM']you have to ask yorself why you need to read as you aproach the 70 yr old mark!



The only reason you need to read is to open some more doors as a musician and make yourself available to many more gigs as a working musician. (unless you have apoint or grudge too prove to someone)

If you feel the need to reed then best of luck to you. Me personally at your age would enjoy some golf or fishing out in the glorious sunshine.

regards

Mark[/quote]

Cheeky young git - I ain't 62 yet.

Mark - I agree with you but I just can't get on with golf (unless it's a VW GTI on a track day).

It's just one of those crazy things that I want to do now I'm retired and also to p'''s off my super session guitarist mate who just sight reads instantly.
To be fair to that git, he says that I play with a lot more feeling than his formally trained colleagues, so if I can read and keep my feel, I think I would be on a winner - I will be doing it out in the glorious sunshine, I promise.
M.

[4 candles]

8 yrs out! sincerest appologies my good man. how about hangliding?

regards

Mark

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1304011' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:26 PM']8 yrs out! sincerest appologies my good man. how about hangliding?

regards

Mark[/quote]

Sod that - my 58yr old neighbour crashed doing that but was lucky enough to walk away with a few bruises.

Have done a solo freefall parachute jump. though!

M.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BottomE' post='1303993' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:12 PM']All power to you. Just keep at it. The note trainer is ok for learning notes on the stave. I think in a way you are probably held back by already having a fair musical palette to play with. It can seem tedious working out notes on a sheet of music when you know you can do it by ear more quickly.[/quote]
This was me and I agree it's frustrating when you can just play a flurry of notes when you cock up that is more involved than the simple notes your meant to be playing off the sheet!

The bass clef game in the YTS thread is good for getting the notes nailed and if you already know where the basic root notes are on the neck that's part of the trick sorted, the only problem is that the rhythm for most is the hardest part anyway. Which bit are you having most trouble with jazzneck? Try and solve one thing at a time I'd say.

[tonyclaret]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1303943' date='Jul 14 2011, 08:25 PM']Use this (I nicked it from the Bassclef YTS thread) if you need help knowing the names of the notes on the fretboard...

[url="http://www.studybass.com/tools/bass-clef-notes/"]http://www.studybass.com/tools/bass-clef-notes/[/url]

As for score, the spaces between the lines from bottom to top is ACE G (that's me that is ). After that, it's practice.[/quote]

I'm in no position to advise on this as I have the same issue. However, as regards to the notes on the stave, my old tutor gave me some phrases to remember the notes.

GBDFA = Good birds don't fly away
ACEG = All cows eat grass

Edited July 14, 2011 by tonyclaret

[Gunsfreddy2003]

I have Grade V theory but still cant sight read and never have been able to which like the OP I find very frustrating. My problem has always been with the rythmn, if you add a dot then it makes that note half as long again but how the hell do you measure that when looking at a quaver for example!!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1304035' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:46 PM']This was me and I agree it's frustrating when you can just play a flurry of notes when you cock up that is more involved than the simple notes your meant to be playing off the sheet!

The bass clef game in the YTS thread is good for getting the notes nailed and if you already know where the basic root notes are on the neck that's part of the trick sorted, the only problem is that the rhythm for most is the hardest part anyway. Which bit are you having most trouble with jazzneck? Try and solve one thing at a time I'd say.[/quote]

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' post='1304054' date='Jul 14 2011, 10:04 PM']My problem has always been with the rythmn, if you add a dot then it makes that note half as long again but how the hell do you measure that when looking at a quaver for example!![/quote]

A quaver with a dot becomes the equivalent of 3 semi quavers. That's why a common rhythm is dotted quaver/semiquaver-the dotted
quaver last for 3 semi quavers and the final semi quaver completes the beat.

[Fat Rich]

Probably not dyslexic, just a bit dotslexic.

Learning to read music on keyboard or piano is much easier because once you've learnt where the notes are for one octave you've learnt the whole keyboard.... plus there's only one place you can find each note. On a bass (particularly 5 or 6 string) you've got lots of options where you want to play a line so you have to think about positions and shifting too.

I found learning the notes on the clef fairly easy but one of the keys to reading music in my opinion is to really know the notes on the neck. Not just being able to work out from open strings or a few that you've memorized but really know each note instantly. Not knowing the notes slows down the learning of any music theory in my experience.

Another key for me is to memorize common notated rhythmic patterns so you know how they sound without thinking about them or counting them out. I've suggested this before on Basschat and been criticized because you can't possibly memorize every combination of 16th note, triplet etc. which is true enough. But if you get the most common ones so that they're second nature to you and play themselves you can concentrate on any you're not so familiar with and work them out. Anyway the more you do it the more you'll memorize.

As for the age thing, my former boss said that I'd have had a great career ahead of me if I wasn't so damn old..... and then he made me redundant. So I set up my own business and watched my former employer go down the pan.

Good luck!

Edited July 14, 2011 by Fat Rich

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' post='1304054' date='Jul 14 2011, 10:04 PM']I have Grade V theory but still cant sight read and never have been able to which like the OP I find very frustrating. My problem has always been with the rythmn, if you add a dot then it makes that note half as long again but how the hell do you measure that when looking at a quaver for example!![/quote]

I have to count everything still but Im alright at counting and breaking it down, I don't know if it's right to do this but if a bar has some semi quavers for example I will count that whole bar as '1 e and a' even the crotchets if you know what I mean? The same then if the smallest note in the bar is a quaver I count any crotchets as '1 and' and the quavers as '2' or 'and' etc. If a bar only has crotchets then I would just count 1 2 3 4 and so on, It also helps the theory side of things because I tend to sing or hum (even just huffs and puffs like Janek Gwizdala) in key as I go, A sort of scat of 4 noises over a crotchet, Ha.

Edited July 14, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

In your dotted quaver situation with my method it would become '1 and 2' 'and' '3' 'and 4 and'
That was dotted quaver, quaver, quaver, dotted quaver.

[AttitudeCastle]

5 to 10 minutes aday, go over the stave in and say each note, then read a simple piece of music and do the same

As you get better with that you can do more complex music, and start adding times the after a few weeks there you go!

Thats how i learn new clefs (been reading music from the bass clef since i was 7 so about 55% of my life and treble on and off, but i can know read tenor, alto and the Subbass clef and kind of the Baritone clef as thats what i'm currently learning! )

[thepurpleblob]

I think you need to unpack which aspect you are having trouble with. I *can* (or could) site-read to a reasonably high standard when I was a percussionist but I'm pretty rubbish reading for the bass. Partly it's because I don't have a great deal of need to do it (except for the personal satisfaction) and partly, I think, because beyond the basic level it's about linking what you see to muscle memory. This takes time and you have the added problem that (unlike other instruments) there are loads of different ways to play the same thing.

I haven't done this myself but maybe some of the more formal techniques that double-bass players use may help.

[wombatboter]

I know exactly what you mean..I have been playing bass since I was 19 and I'm 50 next year..
I never learned to read, just used my ears and got along with the old chord sheet.
It wasn't intented but there must have been something good in what I did since the last 20 years I have played with most of the biggest names around here in Belgium (not that it means anything in the UK :-)) without being able to read..
They send me tapes, cd's and I have a really good memory so that way I was able to play along and gave it my own twist, never exactly copied the basslines..Naturally I missed a lot of "reading" gigs but those were the kind I wasn't to keen on doing so that was ok..
A couple of years ago I wanted to learn to read and I went to a music school but although I had a really good teacher I just froze.. my mind blocked, I saw it all as work and I lost the joy in playing.. I tried it for a year and as soon as I gave it up I felt a huge relief and saw my bass as a thing of pleasure again.
I know it doesn't work as an excuse but in the time I'd write something down it would already be in my head..
Sometime ago I had to play with the disco-band Tavares and they had send sheetmusic and a cd to Belgium. I just listened to it for a couple of times while playing along and I got it without any problem.
When we had the rehearsal the guitar and keyboardplayer turned up and they were "jealous" that I knew it from the heart and was free from reading while I was a bit envious that they just read it and had invested less time..
I love playing bass but I don't want to try to read anymore... that's my personal choice (like you I've had reactions that I have a good feel and that I make up my non-reading with my other abilities on bass although that's not an excuse..)
I bought a book a couple of years ago and that was the best I've ever tried (it is advised by a lot of bassmagazines ) "Sight reading for the electric bass" by Ron Velosky.. Starts really easy and then it works itself up.. might be something for you ?

[lanark]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1303981' date='Jul 14 2011, 09:01 PM']you have to ask yorself why you need to read as you aproach the 70 yr old mark!

The only reason you need to read is to open some more doors as a musician and make yourself available to many more gigs as a working musician. (unless you have apoint or grudge too prove to someone)

If you feel the need to reed then best of luck to you. Me personally at your age would enjoy some golf or fishing out in the glorious sunshine.

regards

Mark[/quote]


Reading music is a skill that's well worth developing and has nothing to do with getting more gigs as a working musician. Otherwise there's be no amateur pianists learning to read music. There's a huge amount of satisfaction in being able to pick up a sheet of music - for a piece you've never even heard - and being able to play it.

I don't know if this is a little reverse snobbery, but I'd say that the OP would gain a great deal from reading music even if he was never paid for a gig in his life.