How many of you...

[Gust0o]

I'm curious here.

There are limits to writing songs if you're only able to work on the bass line - and you do get the odd moment where you struggle to explain what you're hearing in your head.

I think it would be great to show some rough workings out - even if it's just playing a rough recording on iPad or somesuch. I'd probably need to be able to play guitar, mind, but that segues nicely on to my question.

How many of you also play guitar? Is it hard to pick up going this way round? Do other people write like this, or am I missing some other trick - maybe a software solution to mock something up?

[Machines]

If you play bass already then guitar isn't that hard to pick up, you have to think in terms of chords rather than single notes though. I started on guitar then played some bass too, eventually dropped the guitar (still have it though). I just didn't find it as gratifying. With some basic knowledge you could easily knock something up to support the basslines.

[Wil]

Absolutely, I do most of my writing on guitar.

It's not that hard to pick up, but the initial few weeks can be tough on your fingers. I taught myself initially with an Ok Computer songbook that included chord boxes. After I'd got to grips with the common chord shapes my hands were a bit more used to guitar technique and I could work on constructing chords by ear.

[xilddx]

Try a Uke. They are fab for writing songs on! Much easier to play and much cheaper than a guitar.

But yes, I have never written a song on bass, only guitar.

[LiamPodmore]

I tend to write on Guitar Pro, so i can get a rough idea of how parts sound together and stuff.

Liam

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I use a guitar tuned like a banjo with no low E string - like Keef

[BottomE]

I use keys but sometimes guitar. You are right i think when you say that its easier to compose on chordal instruments. Added benefit is you get to think about the chord tones before you construct your bassline. You should pick up guitar pretty quickly if you have been playing bass for a while but don't get stuck on the dark side for too long

[fretmeister]

I mostly write on guitar.

I've played both instruments for the same 22 years.

I feel amputated if I haven't got a giggable amp set up for each instrument at all times!!

[risingson]

Funny you posted this Gust0o as I was only thinking about this today. I play guitar as well, in fact I took it up before I started to play bass but as time went on I became more interested in the latter. Now I've reached a stage where I'm writing more and more and yes, being able to play guitar is indispensable as a writer as it's easy to evolve melodies over chord progressions and you can write for an entire band on it. Chords mean everything when writing, and whilst I love the bass guitar, the way I see it is as an instrument meant to be used monophonically to bed a track and support every other instrument that surrounds it. With a few exceptions, it's rare to hear a bass hook that constitutes a good pop song (not unheard of! Billie Jean of course).

Having said that, many of the world's greatest producers and MDs are bass players, and I think the reason why has everything to do with the birds-eye view of everything else that is going on in the band. Being the person that helps pull everyone together is just as important as anything else. But being able to play guitar and keys offers the best means of translating ideas IMO.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1309479' date='Jul 19 2011, 06:35 PM']I use a guitar tuned like a banjo with no low E string - like Keef[/quote]

I've been thinking of trying that. He mentions it in his "Life" autobiog and he also uses open G tuning a lot. He says a lot of Stones songs won't sound right with anything else.

I played guitar before bass, though only rhythm - I could never get the hang of playing lead guitar. I've played around writing a few songs and it has never occurred to me to try it on just the bass. Seems far more natural to strum a chord sequence as the starting point.

[skej21]

I use lots of things. Usually use theory to start with (picking time sig/feel/key centre) to get the chord chart written out, then pick up the guitar and work out the best way to play them (arpeggiated chord, full chord, strum patterns) then notate the chord part. Then I record it roughly, to play along with. This gives me a skeleton to flesh out.

Then I get my bass out and work out the bass line (then record it) and the melody parts. The decide what/who will play the melodic parts.

Then I give it to my drummer mate who works out a drum beat with me. The one thing I never fele comfortable writing is drums. I think, because I don't play to a really good standard, by "drummer brain" isn't good enough to come up with any original/creative beats on my own. So I get someone to help me who can do the job

Simples

Edited July 19, 2011 by skej21

[lowdown]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1309207' date='Jul 19 2011, 02:45 PM']maybe a software solution to mock something up?[/quote]


Mock ups with a DAW are a great way of doing it if you struggle or are a newbie with chordal instruments.
Using the Piano roll view or notation view you can start constructing chord sequences with the mouse and edit all the articutaions etc.
Or record basic parts a couple of Bars at a time, the building block way,
plus pull in a drum/Percussion loop for a guide until you have something more concrete.

I tend to use Keyboard and a DAW, and add Gtr and Bass later on.


Most music for films is done using mock ups that a director can hear and get an idea of whats going on all the way through the writing and filming process,
Then it will go off to the scoring stage.
So if a mock up is good enough for Hollywood, i am sure it will be more than enough info for your band...


Garry

[xgsjx]

I've played guitar longer than I've played bass (nearly 30 years). If you're gonna learn, don't go for some unusual tuning & learn it just as EADGBE. Treat it as a standard 4 string bass with an extra 2 strings up top.
For chords, start with CAGED, then learn F (your first bar chord). After that, it's fairly easy.
If you struggle with chords, do power chords or simple 2-3 note versions of chords.

I'd say learn as many instruments as you can. A guitarist is a guitarist, a bassist should be a musician

[Eight]

Not that I write much, but when I do I tend to write directly in notation with Sibelius. I'm beginning to think that's weird though.

[paul_5]

I dabble with the guitar, don't know many orthodox 'chord shapes', which is handy as I don't write orthodox music. I know what sound I've got in my head (when the voices are quiet) and shoot for that. My ears tell me how close I am.

Most of my stuff starts with a riff in my head which I play on the bass and notate in Sibelius. Form then I keep adding/subtracting parts until I find some thing that works. It takes a while to actually finish a piece, but I 'm always really happy with the results.

Also handy is the way that Sibelius tabs stuff out (makes for really speedy sessions with the guitarist, as it's quicker for him to work out my "spaz chords" as he calls them). We can record 4 pieces a day from scratch.

I realise that this ain't the way forward for everyone, but it works for me.



FWIW if you're learning another instrument I'd probably recommend the piano/keyboard as it makes theory SOOOO much easier to understand.

[EdwardHimself]

Picking up guitar when you've played the bass i don't think is too hard. It's sort of like learning a 3rd language or something; once you've learned how to play one instrument, the second one is considerably easier especially if it's similar in terms of how it works.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Eight' post='1309550' date='Jul 19 2011, 07:39 PM']I'm beginning to think that's weird though.[/quote]

Not as weird as you think.
Alf Clusen of 'The Simpsons' score fame has something to say about it.

[url="http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/user_movies/clausen_hi_wmv.html"]Alf Clausen & Sibelius[/url]



Garry

Edited July 19, 2011 by lowdown

[RhysP]

I play guitar but to be honest I find keyboards far better to write on than guitar.
I'm a much worse keyboard player than I am a guitarist or bassist but I just find keyboards more inspiring; I'm certainly a lot less likely to come up with a load of cliched rock riffs on keys than guitar.

[icastle]

Guitar and\or keyboard for me when I write stuff - it's far easier to hand over a rough finished piece than random scriblings on the back of a fag packet which get transformed into something other than you had in mind.

[xilddx]

Piano's the way to go IMO, the most useful instrument a bassist can learn from a theoretical and writing POV.

[Ou7shined]

I play both bass and guitar. I normally don't set out to actually write something but can get the germ of an idea while noodling with either. As soon as I get my teeth into something I find that I simultaneously think what the other part(s) is playing. I have very little theory so it's all by feel. I write with loops a lot and have gone from looper pedals to loops in Audacity to DAW for writing but generally share my ideas with guitar as no one else is interested in bass and couldn't figure out what goes with it anyway .... it was far simpler when I was in a riff based band where the bass and guitars almost played the same thing.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1309548' date='Jul 19 2011, 07:37 PM']I'd say learn as many instruments as you can. A guitarist is a guitarist, a bassist should be a musician [/quote]
I write on guitar, bas and keyboards as well as drum programming as required.

For Dick Venom most of my song ideas start on the guitar since that's the main instrument after the vocals. I'm one of those lucky people that can hear the whole song arrangement in their head, so once I've worked out the guitar part, I've got a good idea about what I'm going to be playing on the bass.

I think that the every instrument has it's own strengths when it comes to songwriting. There's certainly nothing wrong with using the bass as your starting point. Most of the SugarBox songs and a lot of the later Midnight Circus stuff that I wrote started with a bass line.

[Gust0o]

I've got Guitar Pro, which might be a useful start until picking up something more concrete - I'd posted something in the Recording forum, about drum tracks, which has since proved very useful. I've now gotten to stage of being able to put bass line and some skeletal drums together; I was just looking for some more now.

We've got a piano in the dining room. It's nothing something I've looked at since I was 12... always a time to learn, eh?

There have been some really positive suggestions in this thread, thanks guys.

[markstuk]

I write on a piano - I suppose because that was my first instrument and I learned it the old fashioned way through Grade 8.. I think playing the piano has stopped me from being able to play "strummy" guitar because the way you approach harmony in terms of playing is so different.. Bizarrely I've neve rhad an issue with bass, probably because walking bass lines and counterpoint are core techniques in piano playing.. I also find I get a different perspective on any track I play bass and keyboard versions on... Drums completely defeat me...

Edited July 20, 2011 by markstuk

[MacDaddy]

I think it's far easier to be an average bassist than it is to be an average guitarist. But it's far more difficult to be a good bassist than a good guitarist.