Tonewoods

[Crimson Guitars]

It's all been said already but as a 'professional' (who is constantly learning and changing his opinions) with over 100 different custom guitars and basses under his bekt I have to say.. lots!

All wood is a tonewood, period.. it just depends what tone you want and how much your guitar builders wants to charge you. There is so much bullshit out there and it really pisses me off!

Dense and heavy is bright and defined tonally while light is warm and fuzzy.. a generalisation to be sure but true.

I could build a guitar out of anything you send my way and through the other weapons in my arsenal I will still be able to get the tone into a fairly well defined slot. In the end a true guitar builder will always say that it is impossible to be specific, even with fully acoustic instruments (and my training was building baroque viola da gambas and violins!) the build process, hardware choice, strings and playing style all contribute to the end result. Here's a link to a slightly longer rant I had about this elsewhere.. [url="http://www.crimsonguitars.com/buildaguitar/got-wood"]got wood?[/url]

[cytania]

In theory you'd get some very unmusical instruments if you were able to make them out of say balsa at the low density extreme (any neck joint would shear off as you tightened the first string, balsa is that soft (bizarrely it's classed as a hardwood!)) or leadwood at the other (not sure you could even find a bit big enough for even a minimal body, once bought my brother a tiny ornament made of it, very heavy for it's size).

Point of this is that guitar makers are trying for a proper decent sound so make choices that support each other. No one is in the business of making nasty sounding instruments that prove a point.

There's another recent thread BC at present about non-wood bodies and the philistines should try a few acrylic et al basses. I was quite surprised how clearly different they sound.

Somewhere out there I remember a research picture of the resonant parts of an electric guitar and the body hardly vibrates at all compared to the neck. So these experiments with lumber are revealing that in a sense the body and the body/neck joint are as much a damper as they are a resonator. Clearly the lumber used was part of the mid-spectrum of useable woods between the balsa/leadwood poles.

If wood hasn't dried a long while it can split in itself and real long term the paint finishes that go over it can develop long splits (have seen such on a 70's Fender bass).

Clearly there's alot going on even before we get to wood sandwiches. The point of the lumber experiments IMHO is that body wood isn't the most vital part of the equation.

Alot of the obsession with body wood comes from the guitar world in particular acoustic guitars. Here the neck is stiffer and the guitar box does the main vibrating. With acoustics you really can hear alot of difference (bracing matters alot but I digress).

One thing I've noticed in my quest for a good cheap bass is that manufacturers have a pecking order basicly maple/basswood/alder. See a cheap natural finish it's usually maple, see cheap alder body it's often multi-blocks with a veneer ontop. I've not found anyone breaking away from the pack. Industry delusion or basic wood economics?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316401' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:14 PM']I think wood is important, but IME wood quality is infinitely more important than the actual wood you use![/quote]
Can you define wood quality without using terms like better or more goodly? What specifically makes one piece of maple good and another not good in regards to tone and not just visual or structural considerations?

Bonus points for being able to do this without defining high end Foderas as utter crap.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1316677' date='Jul 26 2011, 01:40 AM']So would wood from my local sawmill be rubbish for guitar making?[/quote]
No, look for straight grain and lack of cracks & defects for necks. Anything will work for bodies. Here's a bass I made from a local wood store's supplies. The maple was less than $3 a board foot.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316737' date='Jul 26 2011, 02:37 AM']Bass/guitar wood needs curing time (or whatever you wanna call it). I'm not convinced this is the same as what it is for the mainstream wood market - might be worth finding out.[/quote]
Fender never cured wood. Most fancy luthiers who talk about wood curing are simply describing storing wood with more marketable names. Wood does need to be kiln dried which is more stable than the tonewood hyped and usually false air dried concept. Allowing the wood to stabilize to current atmospheric conditions is important regardless of any previous treatment. Also wood should be allowed to stabilize after gluing and before cutting to shape.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316983' date='Jul 26 2011, 05:20 AM']Though selecting the same species from the same forest/region ideally from a tree of similar age will get you fairly close.[/quote]
Absolutely not, ash for example is famous for varying greatly from one end of a board to another. There are more variations in a species than between species for the most part.

Don't take hype from salesmen as science, it's not.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1317018' date='Jul 26 2011, 05:37 AM']I heard that a sawmill near me might be selling kiln dried ash in varying sizes, im temped to go get some.[/quote]
Try digging your fingernail into different parts of the board, if you're lucky enough to find some that compresses easily ask them to cut off that end as it will be lighter. This is what most tonewood gurus think is the species of swamp ash. The lumber yard will know it as the crap that cabinet builders don't want and will be happy to get rid of it. If you buy it from a tonewood supplier though it will be heavily marked up. But you get what you pay for

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1317161' date='Jul 26 2011, 07:08 AM']I'm sure it'll be fine, but IIRC bass wood is air dried rather than kiln. No idea on the difference it makes, though you may like to find out.[/quote]
No commercial wood that I'm aware of is air dried. Better to just buy anything and have it blessed by a priest, if you're religious you'll hear the difference.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1317448' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:45 AM']I hear the best stuff is cut by the blonde virgins of a pygmy tribe in the everglades and dried by the farts of the elders.[/quote]
You're joking but this is how those rumors get started.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jmsjabb' post='1317498' date='Jul 26 2011, 11:22 AM']I am not disputing the facts you suggest, I fully agree pups, strings, player, weather, paint, carpet, curtains, moisturiser cream brand all effect the sound, it's just timber is also one factor in that overall sound.[/quote]
As is the shirt you are wearing when you play it and how fat you are.

Ambient air temperature and the temperature of the strings has more effect on tone than wood choice. Scientifically speaking of course.

[Ou7shined]

I absolutely love the many sensible answers in this thread. A year ago it would have been full of pseudo elitists spouting as many exotic sounding names as your keyboard could handle. Well done Basschat you are learning to think for yourselves.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1317586' date='Jul 26 2011, 12:20 PM']Where I've found the luthier earns their money is in being able to tell those differences before the instrument comes together. Less luthiers out there can do that, than one might think.[/quote]
I'd suggest it's even less than that

[thisnameistaken]

If I was buying an acoustic instrument, like a double bass or a quality acoustic guitar, I would expect to hear the difference the wood makes. But electric bass guitars? Do me a favour. Strings and pickups and amplification are much more important, and you will pay a lot less for those.

[Bassman Sam]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1317895' date='Jul 27 2011, 02:53 AM']If I was buying an acoustic instrument, like a double bass or a quality acoustic guitar, I would expect to hear the difference the wood makes. But electric bass guitars? Do me a favour. Strings and pickups and amplification are much more important, and you will pay a lot less for those.[/quote]

Nail - Head!

My ears couldn't tell the difference between woods on a solid body electric bass but then again, I'm an old fart.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1317895' date='Jul 26 2011, 06:53 PM']If I was buying an acoustic instrument, like a double bass or a quality acoustic guitar, I would expect to hear the difference the wood makes.[/quote]
I've met a number of acoustic builders who have said to me that wood doesn't matter in acoustics either, but if you want to make the sale you have to flatter the customer and not try to teach them. Then there are builders like Rainsong who will try.

Some Status necks are apparently plastic and graphite around MDF, why does that not get credited with the tone?

Here's a clip of what I'm pretty sure is a balsa wood bodied bass. You can really hear the epoxy if your ears are good enough.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1317867' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:16 AM']No, look for straight grain and lack of cracks & defects for necks. Anything will work for bodies. Here's a bass I made from a local wood store's supplies. The maple was less than $3 a board foot.

[/quote]


Would you accept a fiver for this bass if the wood was so cheap?!! Just kidding. That is a seriously nice looking bass. Top gear mate!!

[lanark]

[quote name='silddx' post='1317539' date='Jul 26 2011, 07:47 PM']
From [url="http://www.bas-extravaganza.nl/?page=bassen&BassenID=25"]Bas Extravaganza[/url]

The unplayable action is its USP [/quote]

But it would be great for the Flintstones revival in Rockville.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='silddx' post='1317539' date='Jul 26 2011, 07:47 PM']The unplayable action is its USP [/quote]
The action doesn't look massively high, and there appears to plenty of downward travel in the bridge saddles.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='cytania' post='1317680' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:45 PM']Somewhere out there I remember a research picture of the resonant parts of an electric guitar and the body hardly vibrates at all compared to the neck. So these experiments with lumber are revealing that in a sense the body and the body/neck joint are as much a damper as they are a resonator. Clearly the lumber used was part of the mid-spectrum of useable woods between the balsa/leadwood poles.[/quote]

This is really interesting...after much swapping of pickups, necks, bodies, tapping of woods and pondering I have come to the conclusion that the role of the neck is a bit under-appreciated and would probably look to change that before body wood if I wanted to make tonal alterations.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1318129' date='Jul 27 2011, 12:14 PM']This is really interesting...after much swapping of pickups, necks, bodies, tapping of woods and pondering I have come to the conclusion that the role of the neck is a bit under-appreciated and would probably look to change that before body wood if I wanted to make tonal alterations.[/quote]
I believe this too but I think it is even more dependant on the quality of the union between the neck and the body. Get that wrong and it negates any benefit.

[dc2009]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1317865' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:10 AM']Can you define wood quality without using terms like better or more goodly? What specifically makes one piece of maple good and another not good in regards to tone and not just visual or structural considerations?

Bonus points for being able to do this without defining high end Foderas as utter crap.[/quote]

There is basic structural quality, presence of knots etc, and of course visual. You can't define good in terms of tone in anything other than subjective terms because it is a subjective descriptor....

Kiln drying will not maintain the same wood structure as air drying, beyond a point. Fender use a certain stock of woods, and perhaps ones that they can get away with not curing, the wood in things like Warwicks are fairly obscure and seeing as very few other companies use them, I have no idea if the curing is necessary or not. I know they cure bubinga and maple for drum kits, so the logic seems the same.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1318144' date='Jul 27 2011, 04:33 AM']There is basic structural quality, presence of knots etc, and of course visual. You can't define good in terms of tone in anything other than subjective terms because it is a subjective descriptor....

Kiln drying will not maintain the same wood structure as air drying, beyond a point. Fender use a certain stock of woods, and perhaps ones that they can get away with not curing, the wood in things like Warwicks are fairly obscure and seeing as very few other companies use them, I have no idea if the curing is necessary or not. I know they cure bubinga and maple for drum kits, so the logic seems the same.[/quote]
So what does it mean when you say regarding tone "but IME wood quality is infinitely more important than the actual wood you use!"?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='1317986' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:56 AM']Would you accept a fiver for this bass if the wood was so cheap?!! Just kidding. That is a seriously nice looking bass. Top gear mate!![/quote]
Well the ebony was a bit more but the maple and purpleheart was not that expensive. I'd spend a god deal of time picking through maple boards to find a good straight grained flatsawn piece. For tone I just slapped in some Smith gear and it sounds just like a Smith even though I used different woods and a lot less of it.

I sold it for $3k 20 years ago but I can pass on your fiver offer to the current owner

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1318047' date='Jul 27 2011, 02:53 AM']You're giving me Ideas. Now should I go onto Talkbass and post as a Lutiher and get it started [/quote]
I would encourage that

[Mikeg]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1317867' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:16 AM']No, look for straight grain and lack of cracks & defects for necks. Anything will work for bodies. Here's a bass I made from a local wood store's supplies. The maple was less than $3 a board foot.

[/quote]
Thats realy nice man, great work. Where'd you get the wood from?
Also if you dont mind me asking, what machinery was required for this build?