Where does technique end, and music begin?

[xilddx]

Serious question.

[BigRedX]

The music is king.

Technique should only be a concern if it gets in the way of the music, either by preventing you from playing what the music needs or because it's overshadowing the music.

[Ross]

When you're a horn player.

No seriously, I've yet to meet a horn player that can improvise or really play a lot without a bit of music in front of them. Mad...

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Ross' post='1316648' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:25 AM']When you're a horn player.

No seriously, I've yet to meet a horn player that can improvise or really play a lot without a bit of music in front of them. Mad...[/quote]
just for balance...
I know loads

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='silddx' post='1316622' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:06 AM']Serious question.[/quote]
Any notion of technique and/or best practice or for that matter any thought that is not just music, in an ideal world, would be dispensed with in[i] favour[/i] of making music. It is the point at which you forget theory, scales, chord tones arpeggios etc etc that you can hopefully let ideas flow, but it is worth noting that those ideas can flow [i][b]because[/b][/i] you have put in the practice and can therefore complete tasks without thinking.

[lanark]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1316662' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:31 AM']Any notion of technique and/or best practice or for that matter any thought that is not just music, in an ideal world, would be dispensed with in[i] favour[/i] of making music. It is the point at which you forget theory, scales, chord tones arpeggios etc etc that you can hopefully let ideas flow, but it is worth noting that those ideas can flow [i][b]because[/b][/i] you have put in the practice and can therefore complete tasks without thinking.[/quote]

This.

It's the same with dancing and painting and a myriad of other art forms. You can only forget about technique once you no longer have to think about it - and you can only stop thinking about it when it's second nature.

Unfortunately, on the bass I'm a long long long way away from this point.

[Fat Rich]

On a bass, music is on the E and A strings below the 7th fret. Anything else is just technique and should be avoided.

Or maybe, if you're a great musician nobody should be able to tell where technique ends and music begins. For the rest of us it's usually pretty obvious which bits we're having to concentrate to play and don't quite flow as they should.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1316662' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:31 AM']Any notion of technique and/or best practice or for that matter any thought that is not just music, in an ideal world, would be dispensed with in[i] favour[/i] of making music. It is the point at which you forget theory, scales, chord tones arpeggios etc etc that you can hopefully let ideas flow, but it is worth noting that those ideas can flow [i][b]because[/b][/i] you have put in the practice and can therefore complete tasks without thinking.[/quote]

But for me it's what jakesbass said.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Fat Rich

[Dave Vader]

It's a bit like a foreign language, you can't be fluent until you've learned all the technique (or words and grammar as they call them)

[johnny_frog]

For me, music in its purest form is an art... a method of creative expression.
Technique and music theory give you the tools/language to allow you to express yourself in a way others can understand.

However just knowing the technique doesn't neccessarily make you creative... I can write in english because I have the tools but that doesn't make me a poet.

All personal opinion/viewpoint of course

Edited July 26, 2011 by johnny_frog

[JTUK]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1316651' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:26 AM']just for balance...
I know loads [/quote]


Indeed....all the guys I know can read very well and blow over anything. They just don't get the gigs otherwise.

[lowdown]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1316651' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:26 AM']just for balance...
I know loads [/quote]


Yep, there are more than plenty about.



Garry

[xilddx]

[quote name='johnny_frog' post='1316700' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:02 AM']For me, music in its purest form is an art... a method of creative expression.
Thechnique and music theory give you the tools/language to allow you to express yourself in a way others can understand.

However just knowing the technique doesn't neccessarily make you creative... I can write in english because I have the tools but that doesn't make me a poet.

All personal opinion/viewpoint of course[/quote]
It's interesting because music is a language, you can learn its vocabulary, but how does one COMMUNICATE to others in a way they understand what is intended? It's an interpretive language and I think drawing parallels with verbal languages is inadequate.

[johnny_frog]

"It's interesting because music is a language, you can learn its vocabulary, but how does one COMMUNICATE to others in a way they understand what is intended? It's an interpretive language and I think drawing parallels with verbal languages is inadequate."

I suppose that would be the creative bit... using the techniques and tools you have to allow you to convey an idea to your audience.

As an example...
"Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rage at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light." Dylan Thomas

Versus
" I know you are old but don't just give up and die" Me

Both use the same technique (english) to convey the same basic information... but to my mind Mr. Thomas does it a bit more creatively

Oh... and good choice of debate topic mate... way more interesting that discussing scratchplate colour

[urb]

[quote name='silddx' post='1316716' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:18 AM']It's interesting because music is a language, you can learn its vocabulary, but how does one COMMUNICATE to others in a way they understand what is intended? It's an interpretive language and I think drawing parallels with verbal languages is inadequate.[/quote]

Well then you're into the indeterminable world of taste... it's art man, if Joe Public public stand in front of a Francis Bacon painting and they 'like' it, or are horrified by it - then surely the art has done its job - it exists to hold up a mirror to society - therefore music does this to varying degrees - some in a really mundane everyday way, but some in the most transcendent form possible - but how and what form these last two examples take is comepletely open to interpretation... you see it's art innit?

[sprocketflup]

[quote name='silddx' post='1316622' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:06 AM']Serious question.[/quote]


Deep.

Endless.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='urb' post='1316736' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:36 AM']Well then you're into the indeterminable world of taste... it's art man, if Joe Public public stand in front of a Francis Bacon painting and they 'like' it, or are horrified by it - then surely the art has done its job - it exists to hold up a mirror to society - therefore music does this to varying degrees - some in a really mundane everyday way, but some in the most transcendent form possible - but how and what form these last two examples take is comepletely open to interpretation... you see it's art innit?[/quote]
This is interesting Mike, I always marvel at some artist's ability to convey a message which seems to speak to a history that chimes with my core, in most cases it's singer songwriters that reach me in this way, eg Joni Mitchell, Carole King, Rickie Lee Jones, James Taylor, Paul Simon, Sting, even Elton John (although his performance doesn't groove me as much) Having said that I am also reached by the likes of Bach, Beethoven and the great song writers of the American song book and many things between.
My stock saying when asked by people "what are you into" is always "good music" beyond that there are those special ones that just seem to be able to convey something that is speaking about the stuff from which we are made down through our evolution.

[Mr. Foxen]

I'm at a pretty uncreative time at the moment, everything is going pretty smooth, so I don't have much I wish to express. So I work on my technique, getting various bits I've picked up to integrate into my playing. When I do wanna to say something, maybe they'll be useful.

[ZMech]

I'd say it's partly the motivation for the notes/method you're choosing. If you play some crazy fast run because you think that's what suits the song best, then it's music, but if you're doing it just because you're able to, then maybe not so much.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='johnny_frog' post='1316732' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:33 AM']As an example...
"Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rage at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light." Dylan Thomas[/quote]

Bach

[quote name='johnny_frog' post='1316732' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:33 AM']Versus
" I know you are old but don't just give up and die" Me

Both use the same technique (english) to convey the same basic information... but to my mind Mr. Thomas does it a bit more creatively [/quote]

Motorhead

Both valid and speak to different people differently, like Rothko's paintings (simple, and not to everyone's tastes) versus Titian's highly detailed masterpieces.

If you are thinking too hard about the technique, the music will generally be a bit pony. Use what you know and use it well, you don't have to be Titian, he's already done that.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1316784' date='Jul 26 2011, 11:07 AM']Are we talking Technique as in what the talkbassers call chops?? (I had some lovely ones in tabacco onions the other day nom nom)

Or technique as in Thumb on the neck proper fret per finger etc etc??

If it's the latter isn't their a bassist how isn't too shabby who puts their hand over the nck because he was a violinist and felt more natural?? And then of course wrong technique didn't hurt Jeff Healy much on guitar [/quote]
Chops, theory, not correct posture.

[Skol303]

[quote name='silddx' post='1316622' date='Jul 26 2011, 09:06 AM']Serious question.[/quote]

A simple way of thinking about it might be that I find myself humming good music after I hear it, but I rarely find myself humming good technique. If that makes any sense? No, thought not...

Or to look at it another way: music is the product of technique - it's the bit that we consume as listeners, whereas technique is the 'ingredients' that makes the product, or perhaps the glue that holds it together.

In short: we don't consume technique, but we consume the music that it produces.

Anyway, this is deep. I'm doing my thinkers pose right now (arm bent, fist on forehead, looking serious).

[Bigwan]

As far as I'm concerned there's zero crossover between the two. I've heard people who can't play a note one day write amazing songs the next, whereas we've all seen people who've woodshedded for 20 years, and may have amazing technique, but you couldn't make me listen to them if you paid me...

[xilddx]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1316785' date='Jul 26 2011, 11:07 AM']I'd say it's partly the motivation for the notes/method you're choosing. If you play some crazy fast run because you think that's what suits the song best, then it's music, but if you're doing it just because you're able to, then maybe not so much.[/quote]
How does the listener discern that motivation from the end result?

[andydye]

technique and theory provide the vocabulary (as has been mentioned before in this thread), it's the soul that provides the music which the technique and theory then translate through your fingers and out through your amp...

[Blademan_98]

If music is a joyful sound to its maker, then it is a means to itself.

If you wish to communicate to others then technique is important.

When my daughters and I have a jam, we have little to no technique but we are grinning all the way!

If I want to lay down a track for my muso mates to play, then I find my technique sadly lacking but theirs makes up for it as they seem to be able to play it