Bass Guitar Mag Janek Gwidzala

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='152611' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:22 PM']What I was trying to say was that there is a natural inclination to show off ability often at the expense of taste. I see it all the time not only in music but all in my day job graphic design.[/quote]
I accept one can assert there is a tendency, but not a natural inclination, certainly not for all mankind. Personally I don't care how uninterested people are in what I've done with a song as long as what I did works for the song.

Edited March 6, 2008 by jakesbass

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152612' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:22 PM']Jake,

Having read through my reply to Funkmonkey, my post does sound a little facetious. It wasn't intended. I was trying to establish if hearing him play was breathtaking to a bass player, or breath taking in general. Funkmonkey states that it was about the ability to have total musical freedom, unhindered by poor technique. I question if this creativity and musical freedom would be so apparent to those who don't study bass and, for want of a better phrase, to those who don't appreciate how difficult it is!

I suppose there's not an answer. As a bass player its difficult to be subjective. Do you enjoy a piece because its musical or because you appreciate the skill involved? Or maybe a bit of both? Maybe its subconscious?

I, for whatever reason, tend not to enjoy overtly technical playing. I see less value in studying it than most. I think that a lot of people study it for the wrong reasons. But its up to them. If you like listening to that stuff, great. I'm more than happy for you to exist on the same planet as me. Just don't play Jazz and don't be the front man of Jamiroquai.[/quote]
beautiful answer thank you
I do play jazz, but I'm not Jason Kay

[BigBeefChief]

The Jury is still out on you then!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152623' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:29 PM']The Jury is still out on you then![/quote]
Indicating that you're not quite sure what to make of me.
'hmmmmmm likes jazz doesn't appear to be an arsehole'
mwah mwah your world is crumbling BBC

Edited March 6, 2008 by jakesbass

[BigBeefChief]

I haven't been this confused since I had a crush on Tom Selleck.

[Alun]

The "400bpm" thing came up on Talkbass a while back and Janek did concede that he though of the exercises as 8th notes, not 16ths, so it's really 200bpm in 16th notes. Still quite nippy but closer to achievable

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152625' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:33 PM']I haven't been this confused since I had a crush on Tom Selleck.[/quote]

[Machines]

Meh, i'm with the thread starter on this one mostly.

I usually skip the advanced jazz lessons (sorry Stuart !) as I find them totally over my head and also irrelevant to me. That said - there have been some that are more basic such as on intervals etc.. these are not too advanced but are useful at times.

I think the magazine does cater for both camps, there's advanced playing in there but also some basics.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Machines' post='152630' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:35 PM']Meh, i'm with the thread starter on this one mostly.

I usually skip the advanced jazz lessons (sorry Stuart !) as I find them totally over my head and also irrelevant to me. That said - there have been some that are more basic such as on intervals etc.. these are not too advanced but are useful at times.

I think the magazine does cater for both camps, there's advanced playing in there but also some basics.[/quote]
truth is they are irrelevent to most and I play jazz, but I do recognise how tiny a proportion of the buying publics attention it holds so it is arguable that a disproportionate amount of time is dedicated to it in publications (trainspotters weekly)
I play jazz because I like it, I do want others to enjoy it but that matters to me less than when I'm doing a commercial gig, after all thats what pays the bills.

Edited March 6, 2008 by jakesbass

[Steve A]

A quote from a recent post of Janek's on the talkbass forum:

"It's really interesting how we are moved by music, and how it doesn't have to some blazing thing full of chops and energy to really touch you.

I'm most moved by singer/songwriters right now, and some of that is the most simple harmonic and melodic music in the modern era. It's really a matter of taste, and a question of where your mind is at when you're listening to something."


I think it's about being true to yourself and playing appropriately in the musical field you're playing in.

With the music I hear someone like Janek playing (his solo projects and sideman role with highly regarded jazz artists) it is largely about the art of improvisation. Not only is it an art but it's a kind of science. In order to function at the highest level as an improvisor a player needs the technical skills married to a very high degree of harmonic knowledge and a mastery of the fingerboard. Without those things there are limits to how a player can improvise. If you're aiming to play with the best of the best (as Janek has done and continues to do) then there is no other way to do it than to dedicate your life to it. Often this means working on the smallest details for hours on end. Gary Willis is another example of this. The guy has made his right hand technique something unique but his melodic sense is out of this world.

When Janek played in front of me in the lesson I imagine he was just doing what he does, regardless of whether I was going to like it or not. It just so happened that I did enjoy listening to him, that's why I was there, to benefit from his experience.

That's the point though. I enjoyed hearing him do what he does. I couldn't care less if someone else doesn't enjoy it. It's your choice and your right to listen to whatever turns you on as it is mine and others' who like his kind of music.

Janek makes this point as well. Music is music regardless of the instrument it's played on. I'm a bass player so I love the sound of the bass, but if what he was playing was being played on a piano or saxophone I'd love it just the same.

What he was creating on the bass was enjoyable to ME. It doesn't matter to me that you don't like that style of playing or that style of music. It is totally irrelevant to me. But when I read BassGuitarMagazine and there's an interview with a guy I've never heard of in some band I'm not interested in listening to, it's always interesting to read their point of view. If I disagree with it, it doesn't matter. I'll just try to achieve what I want to achieve anyway, in my own haphazard, faltering way! If I read Janek's column and agree with some of it, that's fine too.

Just to add, I recently got booked for a punk session playing Sex Pistols covers with my old P bass and my main gig is with a blues based singer/songwriter, again playing my old chunky P bass. Learning exercises the likes of which Janek was offering for study can only help with my connection to my instrument and offer me more control. It's all music and it's all good fun.

Edited March 12, 2008 by funkmunky

[bass_ferret]

I never read the theory stuff in BGM but am sure many do. I dont need super chops for Ferrets gigs and I have never practiced or had a lesson. Did have guitar and banjo lessons though. I used to read but haven't for years.

But having the chops can make a difference, as the impact of Jimmy Blanton on Jazz in the 40's and Jamerson/Entwistle repeating the trick in the 60's for their respective genre's would not have happened without their technical ability.

OTOH, a lot of guys play stunt bass with little musical relevance cos they can, and the more strings they have usually the more stunt the bass.

[mcgraham]

[quote]And while you were listening to him, did he "create" anything that could be appreciated by a non-bass player?[/quote]

I realise you've clarified your point, I just wanted to point out (slightly offtopic) that I've often whacked on his earlier CD in the car when my Mum has been there, and she's really liked it. Her musical taste and CD collection normally sits somewhere between Scissor Sisters and Tom Jones *scream*. Same has occurred with Marcus Miller, Joe Satriani (DVD's and CD's), I think I even had the Manring, Carbonne and DiPiazza CD on once and she dug them to varying degrees.

Similar things have happened with numerous other artists and numerous other friends and acquaintances. I often handle music at people's/friends parties and I get at least 5-10 people asking me who's playing and where they can get a copy of their music. 9/10 it's no-one they've heard of or would ever find in any mainstream music in any continent.

Considering a lot of musician's narrow-mindedness, I'm almost inclined to think that it's those that *know* about music, who are least capable of learning about music. It's my 'musically inept' friends who are most open to listening to different types of music, from super basic to extreme virtuoso. I take a leaf out of their book there.

Mark

[BigBeefChief]

Thats interesting.

I must admit I tend to find the exact opposite. I can't persuade myself to like the works of Michael Manring, let alone anyone else.

[Steve A]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152724' date='Mar 6 2008, 09:49 PM']Thats interesting.

I must admit I tend to find the exact opposite. I can't persuade myself to like the works of Michael Manring, let alone anyone else.[/quote]


Put a shirt on and open your mind!

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='funkmunky' post='152739' date='Mar 6 2008, 10:06 PM']Put a shirt on and open your mind! [/quote]

I refuse to wear clothes about the house.

And I'm incredibly openminded. Ask my girlfriend and her sister.

[Steve A]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152740' date='Mar 6 2008, 10:10 PM']I refuse to wear clothes about the house.

And I'm incredibly openminded. Ask my girlfriend and her sister.[/quote]


Terrible, terrible behaviour

[Mike]

I think it's your girlfriend who's open-minded, chum!

[Rayman]

For what it's worth, Janek is a great bloke, great player and very knowledgeable about his music. He's well worth listening to with regard to technique etc because as a pro, he knows what he's talking about, and the same can be said for Stuart Clayton too.

I personally don't always understand what some of the technical stuff means, however, the whole point is that we learn about theory and technique in order to improve, and not just look at pretty pictures of basses in the magazines avaiable.

IMO, BGM is the best bass guitar magazine available worldwide, and in the short period of time its been in print has come on in leaps and bounds, that's why I subscribe to it.

If you don't like what you see, either a; ignore the section in question, or b; don't buy the mag at all.

Playing bass is all about having fun, listening and playing music, but it's also about learning and improving, and like it or lump it, theory is a part of the learning process.

[Bilbo]

I agree with everyone!

I think, for me, the usefulness of magazine articles as learning tools is limited for practical reasons - i.e. a half page limit once a month. The overtly technical columns are often there to give some perverse sense of credibility to the magazines we buy (we write about the best professionals so we are, by association, the best industry publication) but I know from my own learning that these columns will seldom change your life!

Does anyone remember Jeff Berlin's monthly fingerbusters? 'T Lavitz, Jacob Javitz, I Hate Wabbitz' is one title I can remember - I shedded them and nailed a few but they were, with hindsight, completely useless! As I have said before - a good book of theory (Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book springs to mind ), a cd player and the skills and abilities required to transcribe (by ear or by written notes) are all you really need - the rest comes with time and effort and, get this, choices. Transcriptions of great solos are also useful in developing a vocabularly of your own and learning/exploring your chosen genres.

What I like about Gwizdala is that he admits to practising 10 hours a day - Jaco and Pat Metheny have both said the NEVER practice - yeah right!! I think there may be some poetic licence here about what 'practice' actually is! That level of technique is either about the ability to express oneself (Sonny Rollins) or to impress (Yngwie Malmsteen). Plenty of people can express themselves without technique; most people quoted are songwriters, but ot express yourself as an instrumentalist is a different kettle of fish because you haven't the benefits of language.

Jeff Berlin's solo bass version of Lennon's 'Imagine' is a great example. He has put together a finger bustin' solo bass version that is actually pretty pathetic because, without the lyrics, that song is harmonically and melodically nothing! But we have to understand that the creativity that is brought to bear on great lyric writing is borne of a lifetime of talking, debating, arguing, reading and thinking - not just three minutes sat with a guitar strumming away. The 'techniques' required to put together a good lyric are learned over DECADES because the people doing it have used language every day of their lives for at least 16 hours (my God, we even talk to ourselves when we are asleep!)! So, for an intrumentalist to even begin to compete, s/he will have to spend a considerable amount of time interfacing with his/her intrument and learning to squeeze every ounce of emotion s/he can from the wood and metal in front of him/her.

Great pulsing rock bass lines are undenyably fit for purpose in context (my favourite Billy Sheehan line by a mile is 'Ladies Night in Buffalo' of Roth's 'Eat 'Em And Smile') but, if that was all I got to play, I'd give up tomorrow! I like playing jazz because I have to THINK not because I look technically proficient! It makes demands on me that are stimulating and presents problems I get satifaction from solving creatively - is 'Giant Steps' the best Rubik's cube ever built!? I have to accept, however, that watching people solve puzzles is not THAT entertaining to most people and that, consequently, much of the music that I play will always be a minority interest! But this applies to most instrumental music. It's so much harder to communicate with!

'Peaches' is good but I loved 'Down In The Sewers' more!

[Bassassin]

Janek is actually a member on here - perhaps he'll come & state his case in person when he gets a minute. Although I do remember some of his contributions to the old BW forum being a bit, err... [i]contentious[/i].

For my part, I don't really do "stunt bass" - although I can watch & appreciate with a mixture of admiration & gut-ripping jealousy. I'd love to be able to master some of the more advanced techniques - simply from the perspective of being able to do it. Although I have neither the patience to undertake the quantity of practice necessary, or any practical use for any of it in my own musical context.

I see myself as a songwriter/composer whose main instrument happens to be bass, and as such, it seems to me that to have little or no technique or knowledge of theory would be akin to an illiterate attempting to write a novel.

The other side of this (and I've been guilty myself) is to end up incorporating unnecessary techniques & complexity into a composition just because you [i]can[/i]. McCartney was mentioned earlier - I believe I remember he was quoted as saying he refused to learn theory or work on technique, because he was concerned it would be detrimental to his writing - he would be being directed by what he'd learned was "correct".

Jon.

[BigBeefChief]

I can't stand McCartney as a human being, but got so much respect for his playing and his view on theory as a whole.

I also appreciate that if you don't care about the theory, don't read the article. Pretty simple.

What I don't get is the way BGM (and also plenty of people on here) view these technicians as Bass heros/role models.

I'm gonna stick my neck out here and say that if I practiced for 10 hours a day and became a well respected session musician because of it, I'd feel slightly dissapointed. 10 hours a day is a full time job, you'd expect to be a great technician. I would actually have hoped to be part of something much more accessible and (to me) interesting than what Janek does.

The problem I have with these guys, is that they have great talent, but they use it in a way that to me, seems like such a waste.


Of course, I appreciate that this is mostly derived from my taste in music. ie: a dislike for bass solo noodling and chin stroking music.

[Bilbo]

"chin stroking music" was invented for people who can't dance......

[bass_ferret]

McCartney was massively influenced by Jamerson and is the first to admit it.

[Bigwan]

[quote name='finnbass' post='153294' date='Mar 7 2008, 06:31 PM']I'm thinking about putting up prize money however, for anyone who can stand more than 60 seconds of this:[/quote]

Oh dear god that's awful... I managed 68 seconds...

[7string]

I lasted 32 seconds....

Personally speaking, I do read the theory stuff and I do understand it. However, it's the way that these 'cats' put theory into practice that just leaves me cold.

For example, I went to the bassplayer.tv website and found Gary Willis from Bass Player Live 2007. I've heard a lot about him over the years and he's very highly thought of. I literally watched the first part for about 20 seconds as that was all I could stand. Just a mangle of notes in no particular direction accompanied by a drum machine. No semblance of melody at all...

...and that's how I find most of these jazz bassists. Even though it may require many, many hours of practice I just can't listen to it long enough to appreciate the technique being used.

Edited March 7, 2008 by 7string